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[Siquo]

is all I need to understand

You don't need more to understand? In fact, by claiming you already understand you can be sure you probably don't. It's like sitting with your hands on your ears shouting "LALALALA I already know everything I need to know!"

And you do know that the strong horse theory was posted by Osama bin Laden, right? That makes you even more like those you oppose than before...

[Forumsdwarf]

is all I need to understand

You don't need more to understand? In fact, by claiming you already understand you can be sure you probably don't.

I meant that in the sense that it was the last piece of the puzzle falling into place.  But of course the puzzle changes over time, and one must remain current, so your point is taken.

And you do know that the strong horse theory was posted by Osama bin Laden, right?

"Know your enemy."
 -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[Siquo]

Fight fire with fire until the whole world is aflame...

It's MAD.

[Grimlocke]

Yes, killing thousands and wasting billions on fighting futile wars is OK as long as you have Piglet!

Yeah right. Your a fool to believe the US is doing what its doing out of idealism. They are in it for political and financial gain, as they have been for quite some time now.

Realy if the US was so big about its ideals it would have stopped supporting Israel a long time ago.

And if I understand correctelly you are trying to make 'council office removes things which may offend muslim immigrants' with 'brittish gouvernment capitulates under extremist islam'. If that realy makes sense in your head then there realy is no reasoning with you.

[Forumsdwarf]

Yes, killing thousands and wasting billions on fighting futile wars is OK as long as you have Piglet!

As long as we have Piglet the wars are not futile.

Yeah right. Your a fool to believe the US is doing what its doing out of idealism. They are in it for political and financial gain

Well, obviously.  Freedom of speech is a political concept, so clearly we are fighting for political goals.

Realy if the US was so big about its ideals it would have stopped supporting Israel a long time ago.

On the contrary, Israel has freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and on top of all that freedom to choose sexual orientation.  No other country in the Middle East comes close.  Israel is perfectly aligned with our values; we would be foolish not to form an alliance.

And if I understand correctelly you are trying to make 'council office removes things which may offend muslim immigrants' with 'brittish gouvernment capitulates under extremist islam'. If that realy makes sense in your head then there realy is no reasoning with you.

To an American censorship is capitulation.  You are correct: on this topic there is no reasoning with us.  We Americans are as committed to freedom of speech as fundamentalist Muslims are to censorship.

We will, to respond to Siquo, fight fire with fire until the whole world burns ... to save the books from burning instead.

[Siquo]

Well, obviously.  Freedom of speech is a political concept, so clearly we are fighting for political goals.

We will, to respond to Siquo, fight fire with fire until the whole world burns ... to save the books from burning instead.

You do know that you are an extremist? The ones you hate so much? And that you swallow propaganda like there's no tomorrow?

There's no freedom of speech in MANY countries, why aren't you invading them, bombing their homes and raping their children? Why just Iraq, where freedom of religion was significantly better than in Saudi Arabia or Iran, and freedom of speech was a lot better than in, say, North-Korea?

Afghanistan, everyone got that, of course you wanted to get Bin Laden, the taliban were doing a piss poor job in a piss poor country, it's no more of a mess now than it was before, and back then there was no monetary value to be had. But claiming that Iraq was attacked "to protect the freedom of speech" is just... Too blind to find your own nose.

[Leafsnail]

Hee hee, I sometimes forget the non-American audience isn't entirely familiar with American culture.

Norman Rockwell was a famous painter during the WWII era.  The painting I posted, "Freedom of Speech", is from his "Four Freedoms" collection intended to remind Americans of the values for which we were fighting -- and motivate them to buy war bonds.  The importance of "Freedom of Speech" isn't the bonds but the speech.

So... a pointlessly emotive poster for this topic?

Piglet is banned in certain British government offices.  Link:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article102182.ece

If they want to, "certain British government offices" can internally ban whatever they like.  That doesn't mean they're forcing anything on anyone.  If we're allowed to cite single internal examples and apply them to the whole country...

We're not going to let that happen here.  Matt Stone and Trey Parker were censored by Comedy Central, but that is a private company.  Our government has so far not capitulated.  Furthermore it would be political suicide for any leader who suggested it.

Uh... our government didn't "capitulate".  One council just went a bit far in the name of sensitivity.

The fact that mainstream Muslims give the provably bogus "biological weapons in Iraq" excuse to attack us is all I need to understand the "cycle of violence".  They're attacking us for "crimes" they invented out of whole cloth -- but the "root cause" is obvious: we allow people like Salman Rushdie to live, to speak, and we protect people like him from people like them.

Author Salman Rushdie, who back before any of the so-called "crimes" and "human rights violations" we allegedly committed after the Cold War was threatened with death for criticizing Muhammad in a book he wrote called The Satanic Verses.

Looking at that provocation from the Muslim perspective, a critical facility for understanding the conflict I do agree, we dared to defy their Fatwah, and for that their God demands we must be punished.

Jesus Christ, have you ever even met a Muslim?  They're not all these crazed militants you imagine.

Salman Rushdie's fatwa was issued by the Iranian government, not by Islam as a whole.

So be it -- both of us have our values we're willing to fight for and they're mutually exclusive.  Enough are willing to kill and die for their cause that we must be.  Drones, missiles, troops, alliances to nations with compatible values, whatever it takes, freedom of speech is worth it.  The lives of millions are not worth the banning of a single book, not worth the life of a single cartoonist, not worth censoring a single frame of South Park.

I like the idea that, somehow, by bombing farmers in Afghanistan, we're "protecting free speech".

But there is hope: the Strong Horse Theory predicts that if we fight hard enough long enough Muslim society will reform and adopt our ways.  On the other hand, should that theory prove to be in error an aggressive policy eventually solves the problem anyway by eliminating all those who are causing it.

Strong Horse Theory fails then.  Simple as that.  Eliminating a billion innocent people is an even more retarded idea.

I mean... argh.  How can you even begin to justify any Middle Eastern war in the name of free speech?

[Siquo]

If I didn't know that he posts like this everywhere, I'd say FD is trolling.

OnTopic:
Geert: "Nobody wants to play with me! They all hate me because I'm right!"
VVD: "You want to play with us? Maybe CDA will play with us as well?"
Geert: "No!"

Funny how he reacts when he can't be the victim.   

[Muz]

But there is hope: the Strong Horse Theory predicts that if we fight hard enough long enough Muslim society will reform and adopt our ways.  On the other hand, should that theory prove to be in error an aggressive policy eventually solves the problem anyway by eliminating all those who are causing it.

This. This is exactly why terrorists are killing people. If they fight long and hard enough, soon American society will reform and adopt their ways. It's gonna be a long war, boys.

[Siquo]

This. This is exactly why terrorists are killing people. If they fight long and hard enough, soon American society will reform and adopt their ways. It's gonna be a long war, boys.

If both sides believe this (and they seem to do), then yes, it won't be over for a loooong time.

[Phmcw]

The amusing thing is that the American and their allies aren't by any stretch of the imagination enforcing free speech in Iraq and in Afghanistan. They are even pressuring their own troops not to talk, and arrest them if they raise a flag against obvious abuse. See collateral murder for instance.
Piglet if irrelevant, wikileak is not.

[Leafsnail]

Oh yeah - and The Sun is not a newspaper.  You'd be better off taking every article on The Onion seriously than doing the same for The Sun.

I mean, they're the kind of newspaper that runs a story about Christmas being renamed "Wintervale" so as not to offend ethnic minorities.  Well, the story is partially true, but they omitted a few details:

- Wintervale was a general winter festival.  Christmas was part of it, but there were other events going on throughout winter.
- It only happened in one place - Birmingham.
- It only happened for one year - 12 years before The Sun actually wrote the article.

This is how 99% of horror stories about Britain spread - taking one extremely isolated example and blowing it massively out of proportion.

[Phmcw]

http://edhidocumentary.com/about/
There, learn about muslims. Humanist, fanatics, homosexuals, communists, ecologists, scientists, the muslims are as diverse as the christians, which is logical given that they have pretty much the same holly books.

Edit: The Taliban are calling, they want their ideas back http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2010/06/22/2010-06-22_texas_gop_platform_criminalize_gay_marriage_and_ban_sodomy_outlaw_strip_clubs_an.html

[Grimlocke]

Realy if the US was so big about its ideals it would have stopped supporting Israel a long time ago.

On the contrary, Israel has freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and on top of all that freedom to choose sexual orientation.  No other country in the Middle East comes close.  Israel is perfectly aligned with our values; we would be foolish not to form an alliance.
[/quote]I know this guy just pulled this right out of his ignorant arse, but I just cant resist saying it is complete and utter nonsense; just plain not true.

You very clearly havnt the faintest clue what Isreal has been doing with US military funding. Have a look into the wars they had with Egypt. One genocide general became president.
Theres also their 'colonisation' efforts, and 'freedom' is as sparse as concrete is in Gaza. Overused as this comparsion may be, Muslims in Isreal are treated like Jews in Nazi Germany. Not to mention the irony.
If this all 'alinges with your values' then someone realy should lock you up.

[Forumsdwarf]

This. This is exactly why terrorists are killing people. If they fight long and hard enough, soon American society will reform and adopt their ways. It's gonna be a long war, boys.

If both sides believe this (and they seem to do), then yes, it won't be over for a loooong time.

"Let's roll."
 -- Todd Beamer, passenger, United Airlines flight 93

We're not going to start censoring editorial cartoons or pull The Satanic Verses off store shelves just because it might make some Muslims angry.  We fought the Cold War for half a century.  We can do it again.  50 years from now it will still be legal -- and safe -- to draw a cartoon of Muhammad, whether or not we're still fighting the War on Terror.

Realy if the US was so big about its ideals it would have stopped supporting Israel a long time ago.

On the contrary, Israel has freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and on top of all that freedom to choose sexual orientation.  No other country in the Middle East comes close.  Israel is perfectly aligned with our values; we would be foolish not to form an alliance.

I know this guy just pulled this right out of his ignorant arse, but I just cant resist saying it is complete and utter nonsense; just plain not true.

Your knowledge of Israeli domestic policy is matched only by the level of IT skill you demonstrate in your confused attempt to use the quote feature.
If Muslims in Israel were treated like Jews in Nazi Germany they'd be dead, not holding elected public office.
People often see their own flaws in others.  Perhaps were you better informed you wouldn't humiliate yourself so badly tossing off the word "ignorant" in situations where it so clearly applies to yourself.