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[MindSnap]

Currently, anvils require an anvil to make. This creates some problems if you lose your initial anvil, and doesn't make much sense. (or does it?)

I would propose that in order to make an anvil some sort of a mold would be required, whether out of rock or metal. I've heard of sand casting, but I have the impression that you couldn't use that to make one - an anvil is too big.

For the realism issue, I just don't understand how you need an anvil to make one. After all, the first anvil made wouldn't have been mad with an anvil (unless time travel was involved).

[Tamren]

What IS an anvil? Simply a block of something tough enough to withstand the heat of a red hot piece of metal and the repeated pounding of a heavy hammer.

But the shape of an anvil is important as well, so a simple flat block of stone would not work.

How about this:
Anvils can be made of stone, copper, bronze, iron, steel and adamantine.

If you use an anvil to forge an item using the same metal that the anvil is made of, or a weaker material, it will never break.

With stronger materials however the break chance increases. The damage is not catastrophic unless the difference between the materials is very big. For example trying to forge an adamantine mace on a stone anvil would break it instantly.

If you crafted steel items on an iron anvil, the anvil would last a long time before breaking. The damage builds up over time and the break chance starts at nothing and slowly creeps up.

If an anvil happens to break, it is not thrown out, it is simply "broken". It could be repaired later or melted down and recycled.

A forge that has a broken anvil simply cannot be used and all work comes to a halt. To fix this you would have a menu when you can pick a replacement anvil for that one forge, a dwarf will then haul an anvil to that site and the work begins again,.

The metalsmith that shows up to your fort brings with him an iron anvil. This should be all you need. In an emergency or if the anvil gets lost you can temporarily replace it with one of a weaker metal or even one made out of stone.

Also, if you have not hit iron yet and want to train multiple smiths at the same time, you could create other anvils of bronze or copper, because these metals will be abundant at the start.

Iron is rare and hard to get and losing your only anvil should not kill your game. So how does that sound?

[ May 14, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

[Pacho]

It sounds like a neat idea.

Remember you can always ask the dwarven caravan  for anvils though.

[Mechanoid]

quote:Originally posted by MindSnap:
Currently, anvils require an anvil to make ... doesn't make much sense.

Now that i think about it, i agree with your logic behind this point, as well.

If the metal smithing tech tree were envisioned, it would look like this:

code:

1 = Metal Ore; 2 = Fuel; 3 = Metal bars;
Mining       -> 1
                + Smelter -> 3
Wood Furnace -> 2
Anvil -> Forge -> Anvil

There's a HUGE disconnect in the tree. There's NO way to create a forge without an anvil, and there's no way to get an anvil without already having one to create one.

I mean, an Anvil is a solid peice of material, who's construction would be more at home in the smelter then the forge! Maybe that could be a new set of jobs for the smelter?

Every object that could be made from a single peice of cast metal, could be cast from a mold directly from the smelter, and NOT the forge. However, more complex things like plate /chain armor and toys /instruments would have to still be made at the forge.

So, if smelters could create rock molds (masonry job) that could create an anvil, that could then create metal molds for anvils, then the tech-tree would be an actual tree, and not a tree with a limb cut off:

code:

1 = Metal Ore; 2 = Fuel; 3 = Metal bars;
Mining       -> 1, 2
                + Smelter -> 3, Anvil Stone Mold
Wood Furnace -> 2
Anvil Stone Mold + (Smelter 3 + 2) -> Metal Anvil
Metal Anvil -> Forge -> Anvil Metal Mold
Anvil Metal Mold + (Smelter 3 + 2) -> Metal Anvil

... And of course the ability to directly create a stone anvil at a mason workshop would also be a good idea, so long as the stone eventually broke.

FYI, metal anvils that are properly made never "break" apart, they will simply deform as they're pounded on. If an anvil ever actually breaks in half, then the metal was heavilly fatigued from the moment it was loosed from the mold... In which case it would be created as a "x[Metal] Anvilx" or "X[Metal] AnvilX" or even "XX[Metal] AnvilXX"

[Tamren]

Thats true.

So "broken" metal anvils are not simply in pieces they are just too deformed to be useful.

So the smith would have to take it back to the furnace, and bang it back into shape again.

Stone anvils would just shatter though. In fact even if you were just hammering copper on one, one slip of the hammer and the anvil would be cracked in half.

That said, the stone anvils are meant to be disposable so its fine that way.

Oh and pacho im pretty sure you can only get an anvil if the economy is up and running, if its not by the time you lose the anvil then your totally screwed.

[ May 15, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

[Mechanoid]

Stone is resilient enough to take a few misplaced beatings from a hammer. As well, these things probably wont have any peices that are 'free-standing' or unsupported; it'd probably be a half-ton rock with a dual flat /curved smooth surface. That and it's dwarven crafting.  
They would probably take the stone and carve the stone anvil in such a way as to make sure it's lines of cleavage are nowhere near the striking surface, and that it was strong enough to displace the hit into the ground (like an arch does) and absorb as little of the hit as possible.

[Tamren]

Hmm that said stone anvils that are too durable are waaay too easy.

stone as a temporary measure is good, to avoid using them too much you could make dwarves be unhappy about "not using a proper anvil"

According to the wiki anvils made of steel have a better "bounce" to them. Not quite sure what that means, question never came up back in metalworking class.

[Entropy]

Anvils are not just lumps of metal.
In order to smith practically anything they have to be shaped properly.  They need a very flat surface, and generally a nice curved surface of various diameters (the popular conical nose on the stereotypical anvil) and preferably a nice big hole in which various implements can be affixed (clamps and other such useful things).  

They have to be made out of a very durable substance (generally cast iron) because they have to stand up to very hot substances being repeatedly beaten on it without deforming.

A big lump of metal or stone just is not sufficient for any king of detailed work.  Either you have a crappy substandard anvil which can only be used for a few crude things or you have to have a real anvil crafted from cast iron and shaped appropriately.

Having different qualities of workshops is simply not sufficiently necessary to work that in.

Besides, if you somehow manage to lose your anvil, that just means you have to wait till the economy starts up and order one from the caravan.  No big deal - an anvil is not exactly necessary for the survival of a beginning fort.

Edit: oops - forgot you need the anvil to get the economy going to begin with - so dont lose it before you mint those coins

[ May 16, 2007: Message edited by: Entropy ]

[Mechanoid]

But it is needed to raise a military and make a long-term fort survive...

Anways, anvil quality should influence item quality, just as how materials influence the effectiveness of weapons.
All the more reason to mine into the adamantium, as well, because then you'd almost be assured a good-quality item, even from a newbie; and in the case of legendary dwarves, every work they make on a adamantium anvil would be a masterpeice...
Then you cry when he gets swept away in a flood, and the anvil eaten by a pit demon.  

[Tamren]

EATEN? jeebus, that would be like having the biggest indestructable gallstone ever.

Oh and entrophy... you can only make coins with an anvil currently, so if you havent made 5 stacks before you lose the anvil then you can never start up the economy and get a new one, thus gamebreaker.

This thread brings up a good point though, a lot of the metal items do not need an anvil, things like rings are cast into shape. This requires molds. To that ends we should start another thread about em.

[Entropy]

I had forgotten about making coins... I guess if you somehow lose your anvil before the economy starts you cannot make metal objects.  This still doesnt spell doom for the fortress.  

You can still outfit a military with non-metal gear.  You can make bone or shell leggings, greaves, gauntlets and helms, plus leather armor and shields.  Not the best stuff, but still better than nothing.

Weapons would be restricted to obsidian swords and wooden crossbows firing wood or bone bolts.

While not nearly as good as outfitting with steel weapons and armor, you can still have a viable military.

[hactar1]

I like Tamren's idea... especially since it lets you "bootstrap" your own anvils, even if it means a tedious process of building stone, then bronze, then iron, then steel anvils.

If forging adamantine on an iron or steel anvil were to break it after every couple of uses (as adamantine is MUCH stronger/better than steel) this could perhaps do away with the annoying fact that metalworkers start with no skill in adamantine and therefore take forever to make anything.  Since the purpose seems to be to prevent the player from churning out invincible adamantine items so easily, forcing the player to fabricate adamantine anvils first (with 3 wafers perhaps).

[Heliopios]

quote:Originally posted by hactar1:
<STRONG>I like Tamren's idea... especially since it lets you "bootstrap" your own anvils, even if it means a tedious process of building stone, then bronze, then iron, then steel anvils.

If forging adamantine on an iron or steel anvil were to break it after every couple of uses (as adamantine is MUCH stronger/better than steel) this could perhaps do away with the annoying fact that metalworkers start with no skill in adamantine and therefore take forever to make anything.  Since the purpose seems to be to prevent the player from churning out invincible adamantine items so easily, forcing the player to fabricate adamantine anvils first (with 3 wafers perhaps).</STRONG>

I wish it was 3 wafers, but it's a ridiculous 9.

[slMagnvox]

I had a Mayor a couple games ago who made monthly mandates demanding Iron Anvils be constructed.  That was obnoxious.

Most of these gameplay suggestions do not affect the player who has not lost his anvil, only complicate construction.  Don't lose the thing.

Bridging the outdoor river before the Smithy arrives means he'll be able to carry it very near your gate, if not get it all the way indoors.  Don't take it across the river until after the Fall flood, if its the 5th of a new season, you know whoever is hauling it is just gonna fall asleep on the bridge.  Don't take it across the chasm on a rickety 1-wide bridge, you know a troglodyte is gonna spring from ambush and hurl your anvil down the chasm.  Also, don't drop a drawbridge on your new Smith unless you really want to.

Its that important, look after it.

[MindSnap]

I was thinking something along the lines of casting an anvil from the smelter, requiring 3 hematite, fuel and an anvil mold.