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[Putnam]

Fox wasn't even that overpowered. It's contentious whether he or Falco are better (Mew2King, top 5 melee player, thinks Falco is better) and characters like Peach, Jigglypuff, Marth, Captain Falcon get good tournament play anyway.

[smeeprocket]

I only ever played legend of zelda characters, and even then rarely ganondorf, because the slow characters are hard for me to play.

Zelda was kind of tricky due to be two separate characters in one.

[Putnam]

Oh yeah, and Sheik. Zelda's was considered good until Marth was discovered to be good, but Sheik's always been amazing, for a while being considered the best in Melee.

Ganondorf is fun though.

[Lyeos]

When people talk about SSB, I always start feeling as though I'm the only person in the world that likes to play Kirby.

[SalmonGod]

The no items shit always pissed me off.  Adapting to rapidly changing circumstances is a skill.  Randomization may cause singular unfair events, but those singular events happen to everyone over the course of a match.  If it effects one player more adversely then another, it's due to play style.  Anyone who whines about it, in my opinion, simply sucks at situational awareness and quick thinking.  They want to narrow the game down to nothing but honed reflexes.  The whole reason I like Smash Bros over every other fighting game ever made, is because it expands the gameplay beyond that.

[smeeprocket]

When people talk about SSB, I always start feeling as though I'm the only person in the world that likes to play Kirby.

most fun I had was setting infinite opponents versus kirbies and jigglypuffs and just punting them into the air over and over.

Kirby is fun, I like those games, but the baloony, easily flung around thing is less fun to play on SSB

[EnigmaticHat]

You have to completely and utterly ignore the entire competitive scene

Its funny how you say this like its ridiculous, but like 99% of the players* do exactly that.  And I mean players, not community.  If they're online and making forum posts about smash, they're already in a tiny minority of the playerbase.

[smeeprocket]

I think I lost 95% of the games I played in that series of games, and still had tons of fun. Why is everyone so obsessed with winning all the time?

[SalmonGod]

When people talk about SSB, I always start feeling as though I'm the only person in the world that likes to play Kirby.

most fun I had was setting infinite opponents versus kirbies and jigglypuffs and just punting them into the air over and over.

Kirby is fun, I like those games, but the baloony, easily flung around thing is less fun to play on SSB

I was quite good with Jigglypuff on Melee.  The trick is to keep people guessing as to when you're going to stop bouncing in the air just out of reach to divebomb them, and draw people into off-stage combat where you can dance around and increase the likelihood that they'll do something fatally stupid.

[Putnam]

The no items shit always pissed me off.  Adapting to rapidly changing circumstances is a skill.  Randomization may cause singular unfair events, but those singular events happen to everyone over the course of a match.  If it effects one player more adversely then another, it's due to play style.  Anyone who whines about it, in my opinion, simply sucks at situational awareness and quick thinking.  They want to narrow the game down to nothing but honed reflexes.  The whole reason I like Smash Bros over every other fighting game ever made, is because it expands the gameplay beyond that.

I'm really sorry you can't let people enjoy the game the way they want to play it, and I'm sorry if you think that this is an okay thing to have in a competitive game. Smash Bros with items isn't a fighting game, it's a random-ass party game. They're two different games and I enjoy them both, but there's no way a random-ass party game has any place in a competitive environment.

Not only that, but adding items would only make the actually fairly varied metagame of Melee into actually Fox only due to the fact that he's just that much faster than every other character (except Falcon, but he doesn't have quite as good moves and no reflector so he doesn't deal with items as well). Meta Knight would dominate Brawl even further for similar reasons, and Diddy in 4.

Not only that, but it removes the individuality of each character, making your choice basically "which of these characters can use items best" (hint: fox). The entire game would boil down to efficient item use, which is lame.

Jigglypuff is freaking awesome. Like, objectively. One of the best 5 characters in the game.

[SealyStar]

I don't really like when competitive tactics become fossilized due to an overdeveloped metagame. Look at high-level SC2, which has basically been reduced to out-DDRing your opponent with buildings and units according to a mostly-closed set of strategies and tactics. Whenever something novel is developed, like the Archon Toilet, the professionals whine until Blizzard patches it out rather than accepting it and developing a counter-tactic. Hell, even the initial development of SC2 had Blizzard in bed with professionals to make sure that any feature that couldn't be fit into a specific strategy was cut or made campaign-only.

Basically, in my opinion as a non-professional, metagame in competitive gaming is like drinking alcohol. It's benign and even fun in moderation, but dangerous when it overwhelms everything else.

[the1337doofus]

whats a smash bros
whats a nintendo
doof is confuse

[Putnam]

I don't really like when competitive tactics become fossilized due to an overdeveloped metagame. Look at high-level SC2, which has basically been reduced to out-DDRing your opponent with buildings and units according to a mostly-closed set of strategies and tactics. Whenever something novel is developed, like the Archon Toilet, the professionals whine until Blizzard patches it out rather than accepting it and developing a counter-tactic. Hell, even the initial development of SC2 had Blizzard in bed with professionals to make sure that any feature that couldn't be fit into a specific strategy was cut or made campaign-only.

Basically, in my opinion as a non-professional, metagame in competitive gaming is like drinking alcohol. It's benign and even fun in moderation, but dangerous when it overwhelms everything else.

Jigglypuff only rose in the tier lists within the last two years, in a 13-year-old game. The metagame for Melee is not stagnant.

Besides that, my favorite characters to play are Ike, Ganondorf and Shulk anyway. They're not the best, hell, Ganondorf is still pretty bad and Ike is mediocre at best, but they're all fun, and that's all I care about. Shulk... I'm really feeling him.

My main gripe with Project M is that Shulk isn't in it. My main gripe with 4 is rolling rolling rolling rolling rolling rolling rolling.

[UXLZ]

He was still the most enjoyable character for me to play. My brother and I used to have 10-stock matches, no items and Fox vs. Fox on Hyrule Temple. It was so much fun.
I'm just sad he was made so, so much less enjoyable in brawl. Still like him though. About the only change I liked was the change to his forward air move. In Brawl my favorite characters would have to be Toon Link, Wolf, Fox, and Zelda/Sheik. Snake is always fun in more casual games due to mine and C4 shenanigans. Meta Knight is competitively strong but oh so boring to play (for me.)

Also, yeah, items in a competitive format is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure (honestly have no idea, Putnam will be able to answer though) that SSB tournaments are elimination format, and the only way I can see items being fair is round robin.

[SalmonGod]

The no items shit always pissed me off.  Adapting to rapidly changing circumstances is a skill.  Randomization may cause singular unfair events, but those singular events happen to everyone over the course of a match.  If it effects one player more adversely then another, it's due to play style.  Anyone who whines about it, in my opinion, simply sucks at situational awareness and quick thinking.  They want to narrow the game down to nothing but honed reflexes.  The whole reason I like Smash Bros over every other fighting game ever made, is because it expands the gameplay beyond that.

I'm really sorry you can't let people enjoy the game the way they want to play it

That goes both ways, and it's been a frustration to me because I tend to be in the minority among people I've played with in the past.  Anyone I knew who was a decent challenge to play against wanted items off 90% of the time.  When I play games, I play hard and don't screw around... but I also hate the effect that "competitive" play has on games.  It makes them very dry and not fun.

and I'm sorry if you think that this is an okay thing to have in a competitive game.

I don't see a problem.  That paper fan did not determine the match.  Item shenanigans effected both parties about equally.  The Ganondorf player was better at keeping control of the situation to make items work in his favor.  The Metaknight player was better at avoiding the worst effects of them.  Both players interacted with the randomization element in different ways that were most certainly representative of various skills, as in random things happened, but the effect of that randomization on the game wasn't random.

Yes, there are certain items and characters that approach BS status more than others, but you have the option to disable certain items.  And character balance is a problem with or without items. 

My brother was an amazing Fox player in Melee, capable of doing well in tournaments.  I could almost never beat him.  Unless we played with items, and then his chances of winning were only slightly better.  Because I was better at situational awareness, adaptation, and quickly making use of what the environment threw at me in creative ways.  So even though he was playing a character that supposedly should have been favored by items, I was more skilled at making use of them.  I don't understand why some skills are considered legitimate and others aren't.