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Author Topic: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Trust-o-nomics Edition  (Read 3783624 times)

mastahcheese

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45435 on: October 28, 2014, 05:22:25 pm »

At library now, by myself because of another argument.

Nope, let's not bother waiting until the appointment. It's not like being patient was ever something nice.

I'm tired of this.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45436 on: October 28, 2014, 05:23:57 pm »

I think my argument makes more sense if you step away from the assumption that political power is a right and start thinking of it as a job that must be performed in any society. Seen from that vantage point, democracy loses some of its luster. We don't choose doctors, lawyers, teachers, or other professionals by letting anyone who wants to be a doctor or a lawyer put themselves up for popular vote; instead we test them to make sure they know how to perform the job and let the most qualified candidates take the most high-profile slots. (The best medical students in the world will end up being surgeons at a major hospital in New York. Someone who becomes a G.P. in suburban Minneapolis is still pretty bright, but he may not be talented or qualified enough to take a job as a high-profile surgeon in one of the top hospitals in the world- and that's OK.)

We choose pretty much every other professional job in modern society by testing people to know how well they know their stuff, and then filtering them more or less according to smarts. It isn't a perfect process, of course- nothing human is. Sometimes really bright people end up at a less-than-stellar institution and end up in a somewhat less shiny position than they might be raw material for. Sometimes someone uses connections to get into a program they aren't really prepared for, although such programs usually have a rigorous workload, and they have to adapt or drop out.

But, you know, at the top end of the spectrum, this works. If you're hiring for a law firm, and you hire a graduate from Harvard Law School, you are getting quality. If you hire for a hospital and hire from UChicago's med school, you are getting competence. The system is imperfect, and it's decentralized, but for the most part, it fills important positions with people suited to take them. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to fill legislatures this way.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 05:27:22 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Frumple

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45437 on: October 28, 2014, 05:37:02 pm »

instead we test them to make sure they know how to perform the job and let the most qualified candidates take the most high-profile slots.
You can cut the naivety in this statement with a knife :-\
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45438 on: October 28, 2014, 05:38:58 pm »

instead we test them to make sure they know how to perform the job and let the most qualified candidates take the most high-profile slots.
You can cut the naivety in this statement with a knife :-\

I mean, this varies from profession to profession, but you're surely not so jaded that you think that any old fool with a scalpel can set up a practice in family medicine.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Frumple

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45439 on: October 28, 2014, 05:43:16 pm »

No more than I fool myself into thinking that competence is the main qualifier for getting most jobs, no. Most of the time there's -- maybe, hopefully -- a minimum (which is often a far lower bar than any bloody body would want), but skill is very rarely what actually gets people hired, especially in higher ticket stuff. It is almost always primarily about connections, and secondarily about (certain sorts of) interpersonal skills. Capability comes in third, at best, in the vast, vast majority of cases.
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45440 on: October 28, 2014, 05:44:41 pm »

Not to mention those who get in on gender, religion, or disability.
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nenjin

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45441 on: October 28, 2014, 05:48:57 pm »

I love when a co-worker tells me that, because they did something for a customer before, they will not do it again.

IT'S YOUR FUCKING JOB YOU LAZY PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT. WOULD YOU RATHER STAND UP HERE AND SHUCK AND JIVE FOR THE CUSTOMER WHILE I DO YOUR FUCKING JOB?!

This fucking guy, always the same story with him. I did what he needed to do in about 5 minutes in GIMP, but noooooooooooooooooooooooo, his time is oh so fucking precious he can't be bothered to spend it meeting his goddamn obligations half the time. Fucking prima donna web designers.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 05:51:22 pm by nenjin »
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blazing glory

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45442 on: October 28, 2014, 05:57:48 pm »

I wake up feeling like trodden dirt and then I find out that the sound on my computer is broken for some reason, trouble shooting says it's disabled, but I look to my right, the lead speaker is there sitting on my computer, and it says it's turned on.
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Bauglir

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45443 on: October 28, 2014, 05:58:27 pm »

If you're going to go down that route, you really need to start separating public administration from political decisions, and you need a really good metric for figuring out what things are objectively good for society, and to what degree that's the case. That's a good deal harder to do in practice than democracy, and moreover you need people to staff it who're honest. Yeah, I know that last one's the common complaint lobbed at every system in history, but the fact is that history has shown that we, as a species, really benefit from having a mechanism to remove from power somebody who's abused it, and democracy at least provides that. Any system that's recognizably an aristocracy and definitely not a democracy would, by definition, lack such a mechanism (at least, outside the hands of other aristocrats, which is dangerous for pretty obvious psychological reasons).

Here's the biggest stumbling block for this sort of thing, though. For the vast majority of political decisions, there simply isn't adequate data to make a rational, objectively-backed-up decision. In the absence of an objective Right Answer, the best criterion I've heard of for political decisions is "What the people subject to that decision want done". It may not be a great rule, but it's better than the whims of somebody with the power to make law (who, by all my experience, are ill-equipped to understand the implications of it for their subjects). And if that's your best answer, then elections as they're intended to work test exactly the qualification you're looking for - "Is willing to make decisions on behalf of the electorate, instead of on behalf of self". Now, obviously the United States, as it stands, fails at this, but it's for very, very different reasons.

Realistically, though, by the time you extricate inheritance (which you'd obviously have to do), come up with a coherent strategy for evaluating what is or is not good for every possible political decision, implement an objective monitoring system to ensure the aristocrats apply that standard, and so on, what you wind up with isn't something that really resembles any aristocracy that's ever existed. At this point, I'd say hand the administration over to AIs - we're closer to developing ones that could handle it than we are to developing a human system (and humans to run it) that would implement these ideas without encrusting the current degree of corruption with a layer of superficial legitimacy.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

scriver

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45444 on: October 28, 2014, 08:18:09 pm »

I'm not very sure what abstract "old days" you're getting at but is find it extremely unlikely the rich kids weren't any less spoiled assholes than they are today.

However, as our local representative of the nobility, I would gladly see a return to the real good old days just so I could coast around on the backs of my lessers all day and wouldn't have to deal with smelly peasant oafs and upstarts being more successful or respected than me.
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45445 on: October 28, 2014, 09:15:03 pm »

GODDAMNIT TANGO GET OUT OF MY FREAKING HEAD

This is starting to cause a headache ;_;
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Bauglir

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45446 on: October 28, 2014, 09:36:55 pm »

For the record, your roommate is being a titanic asshole, FJ. And that sucks. I, too, have felt the rage of tripping over a passed-out stranger in the morning on my way to the restroom, and the frustration of trying to sleep while some schmuck whispers a drunken love confession on the other side of my (unfortunately shared) bedroom. If earplugs are inadequate, there's little to be done in the short term (not that you should even have to in the first place).

If I had to put a finger on why, though, it's not because new blood has corrupted the aristocracy, it's because the aristocracy has traditionally been accustomed to a lack of personal consequences for their behavior when dealing with strangers*, and the new guys have adapted pretty well. You've always had a crapshoot when it comes to personal standards of behavior in the upper class. There's never been an age of generally-understood responsibility that backslid into modern decadence - that's just a built-in drive to search for a narrative that explains your problems.

Philanthropy remains alive and well among the new rich. I could point to example after example, but we all know the plural of anecdote is not data, so I'll not bother. If there's been a shift away from the rich actually supporting society with it, I'd argue that it has to do with a shift toward ostentation and superficial glamour across all of society, not just a migration of the ignorant plebeians to get to the top. That's just where a consumption-based economy leads us.

*Equally, the ones who go on to be successful have been very good at anticipating the consequences of their actions when dealing with people who "matter" - but the upper class has always built this distinction into dealing with the world, and the stereotypical rich assholes have always been the ones who've been overly narrow with that filter. Point being, your roommate's behavior would be just as plausible if he were from an old family.

EDIT: Also, FJ, your complaints about the current state of things are valid enough, but I haven't seen an iota of evidence that any past aristocratic system has actually addressed what you're calling the roots of the problem. The sort of hereditary thing we've seen in the past does nothing to test competence. So if the old aristocracy did a better job, you've completely misdiagnosed the reason.

MORE EDIT: Also, a more plausible reason is that he's just an asshole. You get people who behave in exactly this way across all social classes, and that's just because all classes offer ample opportunity for people to get by without learning how to empathy.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 09:40:19 pm by Bauglir »
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Yoink

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45447 on: October 28, 2014, 11:16:42 pm »

Downloaded a demo of Fire Emblem and it is fucking terrible.
Whyyy is this stuff so popular?! ??? I suppose I'll have to ask in the 'Recommend me a game' thread for a decent tactical RPG that I have the means to play. If such a thing exists.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45448 on: October 28, 2014, 11:33:45 pm »

Downloaded a demo of Fire Emblem and it is fucking terrible.
Whyyy is this stuff so popular?! ??? I suppose I'll have to ask in the 'Recommend me a game' thread for a decent tactical RPG that I have the means to play. If such a thing exists.
Fire Emblem has always been a mix of story, RPG, and TBS.  I doubt a demo would give you much of the experience.
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KingofstarrySkies

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Re: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Take a deep breath Edition
« Reply #45449 on: October 28, 2014, 11:43:01 pm »

Downloaded a demo of Fire Emblem and it is fucking terrible.
Whyyy is this stuff so popular?! ??? I suppose I'll have to ask in the 'Recommend me a game' thread for a decent tactical RPG that I have the means to play. If such a thing exists.
It's popular because not everyone can have such refined tastes as you, Yoink~ :P
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