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[GiglameshDespair]

I think it teaches a kid that if they can withstand pain, then they can ignore consequences. And then they become a teenager and a potential sociopath.

Hitting kids is only good for bringing them up short, IMO, and that's for extreme cases. Hitting your kid, or spanking them, or whipping them, does impart a valuable lesson: that at the end of most behavior people disagree with is pain. On the other hand, when you're trying to impart that lesson over, say, breaking a toy? You're teaching them a meta-world lesson for a micro-behavior.

In other words, the punishment should match the crime. Kid breaks a toy? You take their toys away as a lesson about what happens when you break all your toys and no one buys you anymore. Your kid steal? Make them work for free on pain of death. The point is, you don't use the lash as your default discipline tool because it sends a fucked up message to kids about the nature of consequences, and results in fucked up coping mechanisms. Everyone always likes to act like talking it through with your kids afterwards makes it ok, I don't really think so. It's necessary to any degree to explain stuff to kids, but the whole "You made me do that" routine just leads to a messed up Jekyll/Hyde relationship between parent and child. And in truth, I think it's more to assuage a parent's guilt at hitting their child by trying to rationalize what they did to them. Especially after the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th time...

What have you seen that supports that, though? I'm not talking about kids who were beaten, here. Spanked, yeah. But not beaten. Big difference to me.
 
What if they refuse to work after they stole something. What can you do after that point?

Not saying it's the 'default tool', quite the opposite. It's the last resort.

Unless there's a few good kind of studies on it, none of us have grounds to say. Obviously, I reckon it works pretty well, because my parents used that method of discipline on my siblings and I and we've all turned out pretty decent, and have heard/seen people discuss how that kind of parenting is monstrous when they couldn't control their own little shits. So I fully recognise I'm biased in this manner, and I also know anecdotes are worthless.
So, I guess...

* GiglameshDespair shrugs

[TD1]

You can use physical discipline without beating a child half to death. I guess it's in moderation - a stinging slap on the buttocks teaches them not to do it again. When you've got a young child, sitting them down and explaining what they did wrong won't necessarily work if they can't or won't understand properly what they've done wrong.

Just hitting them whenever they do something wrong isn't the right way, and I think that's what Tir is getting at, but used as punctuation - and with a proper reason why - it can be a valid parenting tool.

If the child can't understand what it did wrong then it won't understand why it was beaten either.

I got the odd half-hearted slap from my mum when I was driving her insane (My brother and I when younger never shut up during the night, and kept the house awake) but usually she just had to be disappointed in me, and then I'd feel guilty and try to fix it. No physical violence at all.

I understand that doesn't work for everyone, hence why I believe that spoiled brat needs sense knocked into him. Not badly, but enough so he doesn't get worse from a stranger later.

Personally, I find that the people most in need of a good beating are those who wish others to be beat up. Just to teach them what idiots they are.

I quite agree.

There's a difference between "beating up" and constructive discipline. He needs discipline of some sort, whether the form of the guilt-trip or Tiruin's slipper. But he seems to have a problem with authority, and so I would go more towards Tiruin's Holy Slipper of Justice.

[scriver]

The whole of Sweden has been brought up without beatings and we turned out fine too. In fact, children everywhere have a remarkable ability to "turn out fine" regardless of violence done upon them, and an even stronger tendency to rationalise themselves as "having turned out fine" even when they haven't.

There's a difference between "beating up" and constructive discipline. He needs discipline of some sort, whether the form of the guilt-trip or Tiruin's slipper. But he seems to have a problem with authority, and so I would go more towards Tiruin's Holy Slipper of Justice.

Respect for authority can't be taught through violence, and certainly not through abusing authority.

[nenjin]

What have you seen that supports that, though? I'm not talking about kids who were beaten, here. Spanked, yeah. But not beaten. Big difference to me.
 
What if they refuse to work after they stole something. What can you do after that point?

Not saying it's the 'default tool', quite the opposite. It's the last resort.

I think we're in agreement, but like I said "last resort" is rarely the last resort. It's just the limit of a parent's patience, usually. Depriving kids of things they like (free time, possessions, privileges) is a slower but less dick-head-parental-authority way of managing them.

[Tiruin]

I would go more towards Tiruin's Holy Slipper of Justice.

xD

Though..yeah. I guess the argument here is more on the specifics of the general idea we're going around about. The...err, thing in between the words of whoopin'/beating up/discipline. :v That's where I see our viewpoints diverge.

While I do argue that one can be disciplined without being hit (and yeah--this is truly, true in many many many many cases--the note lies in that if one is not that well disciplined, its an error to those taking care of the child [teaching of good values :O]) My note on dat slipper is more of a conventional route. It's changing now to the 'don't hit children BUT teach and let them understand what they did', because its in understanding that we avoid a heck lot of the problems plaguing our world today :/

There's a difference between "beating up" and constructive discipline. He needs discipline of some sort, whether the form of the guilt-trip or Tiruin's slipper. But he seems to have a problem with authority, and so I would go more towards Tiruin's Holy Slipper of Justice.

Respect for authority can't be taught through violence, and certainly not through abusing authority.

o-o
It...pretty much can. Or...what do you mean by violence? o_O

[IronTomato]

Eh. Persnally, I don't see the big deal with physical punishment as long as you treat it like a slap, and not like you're trying to torture the kid. Even though most of our punishments consisted of lectures and various temporarily-take-things-away punishments, Mum would spank me and my brother when we needed it, and while no punishment has ever worked on him, I turned out just fine.

[TD1]

I got the odd half-hearted slap from my mum when I was driving her insane (My brother and I when younger never shut up during the night, and kept the house awake) but usually she just had to be disappointed in me, and then I'd feel guilty and try to fix it. No physical violence at all.

I understand that doesn't work for everyone, hence why I believe that spoiled brat needs sense knocked into him. Not badly, but enough so he doesn't get worse from a stranger later.

Personally, I find that the people most in need of a good beating are those who wish others to be beat up. Just to teach them what idiots they are.

Must have been tired to miss it, but if you beat people on the basis that they beat people, you'll have to beat yourself.

[Kadzar]

At first I mentally added the word "off" after each use of the word "beat" in the previous post, and it took on a very different meaning.

[Orange Wizard]

My parents would spank me when I was a disrespectful little sod, and it didn't turn me into a psychopath. That came about years later.

[TD1]

Did it coincide with you downloading Dwarf Fortress, or was Dwarf Fortress a side effect and not the cause?

[Orange Wizard]

Did it coincide with you downloading Dwarf Fortress, or was Dwarf Fortress a side effect and not the cause?

It was more of a side-effect. Once I heard you could knock individual teeth out of people and melt their skin off with terrible diseases, there was no going back.

[ShadowHammer]

There's a difference between "beating up" and constructive discipline. He needs discipline of some sort, whether the form of the guilt-trip or Tiruin's slipper. But he seems to have a problem with authority, and so I would go more towards Tiruin's Holy Slipper of Justice.

Respect for authority can't be taught through violence, and certainly not through abusing authority.

o-o
It...pretty much can. Or...what do you mean by violence? o_O

I agree with Tiruin on this. You definitely can teach respect for authority through violence.

Also,

Eh. Persnally, I don't see the big deal with physical punishment as long as you treat it like a slap, and not like you're trying to torture the kid. Even though most of our punishments consisted of lectures and various temporarily-take-things-away punishments, Mum would spank me and my brother when we needed it, and while no punishment has ever worked on him, I turned out just fine.

pretty much this.

[TD1]

Yea, I agree with IronTomato on this too.

[Putnam]

My parents would spank me when I was a disrespectful little sod, and it didn't turn me into a psychopath. That came about years later.

Anecdotes don't add to discussions that are expected to influence future behavior.

[LordSlowpoke]

My parents would spank me when I was a disrespectful little sod, and it didn't turn me into a psychopath. That came about years later.

Anecdotes don't add to discussions that are expected to influence future behavior.

show me the part of this discussion that is not anecdotes

i for one did not any sources linked anywhere