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[smjjames]

Not a RAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEE thing, but Toady Ones verdict on the ukraine thread is that the subject is just too radioactive and polarizing right now.

[nenjin]

Spoiler: Work Rant (click to show/hide)

So for the last couple of weeks, there's been this company meeting planned. Strategic meeting, big company issues, margaritas to be served, ect...I was kinda looking forward to kicking back, drinking on the clock and talking about how things need to move forward.

And instead I was stuck with a customer with a GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING ODBC 3.51 CONNECTOR THAT WILL NOT FUCKING DELETE. It'd been another upgrade I was dreading and somehow, it all went as planned. Except this part. That signaled it would be a problem right as the upgrade started. So I'm pouring through Google searches to figure out the issue, trying them, none are working. Phone starts ringing. Random people asking me about shit no one gave me heads up on. Guy who is confused how to run a report and then when I run it the right way, starts to argue with me it's broke because he doesn't see the data expects. Turns out his guys aren't even entering the data. Meanwhile the entire company is upstairs, where I'd like to be.

So I finally say fuck it, and head up stairs (the 2nd or 3rd time I'd attempted to do so.) As usual the junior developer is tacitly being called out by the lead developer. I'm already angry as fuck, irrationally so I realize. And then the discussion about when to have these meetings comes up and everyone is like "Oh the mornings."

IE the times support generally is the busiest because of some fucking fire someone started the night before. I very reasonably say "There's no way I'll make those meetings."

And my boss goes "Well, there's no reason for all of support to be up here."

And I ask "Well, do you want input or not?"

And he says "Yes. But there's no reason for all of you to be up here."

And so I say "Are we going to choose a tech support lead (a role no one has been willing or able to fill since before I started there) then to collect issues and disseminate information? And he says "Yeah, we should have a meeting about that."

Remind you, were a company of less than 20 people. This isn't some mammoth organization that requires meetings, team leads for a team of 2.5 and what not. Meetings are often a convenient way to delay a decision at my company, and just spawn more meetings when they do happen.

And that's not really even the point. The point is, bottom bitches at our company, i.e., me and the other tech support guy, get almost no consideration for our opinions when it comes to the bigger picture. We're there to do the grunt work, hop when someone snaps their fingers, hop when the phone rings, act as the advocate for the customer and generally give of our time and energy (like everyone) while having the least weight attached to our opinions. Or, indeed, our presence, unless it involves learning something so the whole company doesn't look stupid in front of customers or to fill in the timeline of a disaster. We're also paid the lowest (in a company not famous for paying high wages.)

And it's kinda like.....I just got done sweating over a customer upgrade that was so fucked up from the way things used to be done, and getting slammed out of nowhere with phone calls at 4pm on a Monday.....and my presence isn't really necessary? Like I'm not a vital goddamn part of your fucking business where it is my job to apologize for it half the time?

But I guess when it comes to "strategic" matters, our input isn't valuable, nor our wishes. It's not even that I disagree with him that we all need to be part of it. It was the combination of the high stress and clean up this job requires, and basically being dismissed in the same half hour period by my boss in my supposedly flat company. Shit, whenever anyone says that no one cares about how the business is doing or what it's doing, I'm the first to say "I care! I want to know!" And then for the guy who fucking complains that no one cares, to tell me that I or anyone doesn't need to be there for it?

Fuck that. I like my boss as a person, but I'm coming to loathe his management style. This is after last week I watched him and another developer go head to head and get personal over where to put some fucking bullshit in the UI. Here's a hint boss: don't shit on the people whose backs your company is built on. There aren't enough people here for you to stare over my head while you do that, and all the booze and events will not salve people's anger when it's "game time" and you're being Mr. Assertive in meetings and being an asshole

I mean I don't even bring that much to meetings, technical or otherwise. I'm self-aware enough to know that. But considering 40% of the people there are wall flowers unless directly engaged, how much fucking benefit do they bring? For a company that was pitched to me as supposedly being flat, being treated like a grunt not only stings, it infuriates. Maybe I should just take my cue from another friend who works there, and stop attending all non-mandatory meetings. Of course, giving a shit is the only thing that makes the job doable for me. So that's not a road I want to start down, because I'm bitter enough as it is.

[Graknorke]

Because there's a not-insignificant chance that you could hurt someone.

Which is the point of the warnings. Unless the idea is that there should instead be 'unwarnings' to say when everything is okay, you're saying that people should take precautions for things that they have no reason to believe are true, and in fact believe to be not true.

Never heard of suicide or depression? Or are you claiming those aren't caused and/or exacerbated by other people being insensitive?

EDIT: Alternatively I guess you could be saying harm is okay so long as it doesn't kill anyone.

You can't blame a person being insensitive for another person's psychological problems like that. They are entirely the problem of the affected party to deal with, not everyone around them. Anything other people do is an act of kindness rather than of obligation.

Yep. Sorry; dunno how to put it any nicer.

Because everyone who doesn't agree with you is a soulless monster amirite?

EDIT: And to clarify that last statement, I am saying that I don't not care about people. I care about people as in a person and then another person. But I certainly don't change my behaviour to accommodate to people as a collective. They get treated like the Incredibly Average Person that they essentially are.

Also kaijyuu please fix up the formatting in your posts, that last one was hell to dig through.

[nenjin]

If the snide-content of these retorts comes up any higher, I'll ask you guys to take it to PMs.

[kaijyuu]

Because there's a not-insignificant chance that you could hurt someone.

Which is the point of the warnings. Unless the idea is that there should instead be 'unwarnings' to say when everything is okay, you're saying that people should take precautions for things that they have no reason to believe are true, and in fact believe to be not true.

If there is a not-insignificant chance your actions can harm someone, you should take precautions to prevent it from harming someone. Not sure what belief has to do with it.

Unless you're arguing that people shouldn't be forced to comply with rules they don't believe are effective (regardless of whether they actually are)?

Never heard of suicide or depression? Or are you claiming those aren't caused and/or exacerbated by other people being insensitive?

EDIT: Alternatively I guess you could be saying harm is okay so long as it doesn't kill anyone.

You can't blame a person being insensitive for another person's psychological problems like that. They are entirely the problem of the affected party to deal with, not everyone around them. Anything other people do is an act of kindness rather than of obligation.

If someone has their arm in a sling you probably shouldn't punch them in the arm. This is pretty much the exact same thing.

Side question: Do you think that businesses should be forced to include wheelchair ramps and other handicap accessibility features? Note that these things aren't mere conveniences for people; they're necessities to let them use the facility at all. Also it doesn't result in a net profit for the businesses.

Yep. Sorry; dunno how to put it any nicer.

Because everyone who doesn't agree with you is a soulless monster amirite?

More like I can make moral judgements on others. If someone's being a dick I'll call them a dick. I feel ya'll would support my right to do so. (though I'll accept criticisms along the lines of it being inappropriate for the situation)

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler: Work Rant (click to show/hide)

So for the last couple of weeks, there's been this company meeting planned. Strategic meeting, big company issues, margaritas to be served, ect...I was kinda looking forward to kicking back, drinking on the clock and talking about how things need to move forward.

And instead I was stuck with a customer with a GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING ODBC 3.51 CONNECTOR THAT WILL NOT FUCKING DELETE. It'd been another upgrade I was dreading and somehow, it all went as planned. Except this part. That signaled it would be a problem right as the upgrade started. So I'm pouring through Google searches to figure out the issue, trying them, none are working. Phone starts ringing. Random people asking me about shit no one gave me heads up on. Guy who is confused how to run a report and then when I run it the right way, starts to argue with me it's broke because he doesn't see the data expects. Turns out his guys aren't even entering the data. Meanwhile the entire company is upstairs, where I'd like to be.

So I finally say fuck it, and head up stairs (the 2nd or 3rd time I'd attempted to do so.) As usual the junior developer is tacitly being called out by the lead developer. I'm already angry as fuck, irrationally so I realize. And then the discussion about when to have these meetings comes up and everyone is like "Oh the mornings."

IE the times support generally is the busiest because of some fucking fire someone started the night before. I very reasonably say "There's no way I'll make those meetings."

And my boss goes "Well, there's no reason for all of support to be up here."

And I ask "Well, do you want input or not?"

And he says "Yes. But there's no reason for all of you to be up here."

And so I say "Are we going to choose a tech support lead (a role no one has been willing or able to fill since before I started there) then to collect issues and disseminate information? And he says "Yeah, we should have a meeting about that."

Remind you, were a company of less than 20 people. This isn't some mammoth organization that requires meetings, team leads for a team of 2.5 and what not. Meetings are often a convenient way to delay a decision at my company, and just spawn more meetings when they do happen.

And that's not really even the point. The point is, bottom bitches at our company, i.e., me and the other tech support guy, get almost no consideration for our opinions when it comes to the bigger picture. We're there to do the grunt work, hop when someone snaps their fingers, hop when the phone rings, act as the advocate for the customer and generally give of our time and energy (like everyone) while having the least weight attached to our opinions. Or, indeed, our presence, unless it involves learning something so the whole company doesn't look stupid in front of customers or to fill in the timeline of a disaster. We're also paid the lowest (in a company not famous for paying high wages.)

And it's kinda like.....I just got done sweating over a customer upgrade that was so fucked up from the way things used to be done, and getting slammed out of nowhere with phone calls at 4pm on a Monday.....and my presence isn't really necessary? Like I'm not a vital goddamn part of your fucking business where it is my job to apologize for it half the time?

But I guess when it comes to "strategic" matters, our input isn't valuable, nor our wishes. It's not even that I disagree with him that we all need to be part of it. It was the combination of the high stress and clean up this job requires, and basically being dismissed in the same half hour period by my boss in my supposedly flat company. Shit, whenever anyone says that no one cares about how the business is doing or what it's doing, I'm the first to say "I care! I want to know!" And then for the guy who fucking complains that no one cares, to tell me that I or anyone doesn't need to be there for it?

Fuck that. I like my boss as a person, but I'm coming to loathe his management style. This is after last week I watched him and another developer go head to head and get personal over where to put some fucking bullshit in the UI. Here's a hint boss: don't shit on the people whose backs your company is built on. There aren't enough people here for you to stare over my head while you do that, and all the booze and events will not salve people's anger when it's "game time" and you're being Mr. Assertive in meetings and being an asshole

I mean I don't even bring that much to meetings, technical or otherwise. I'm self-aware enough to know that. But considering 40% of the people there are wall flowers unless directly engaged, how much fucking benefit do they bring? For a company that was pitched to me as supposedly being flat, being treated like a grunt not only stings, it infuriates. Maybe I should just take my cue from another friend who works there, and stop attending all non-mandatory meetings. Of course, giving a shit is the only thing that makes the job doable for me. So that's not a road I want to start down, because I'm bitter enough as it is.

I appreciate the rage. Have you considered communism?

[Graknorke]

If there is a not-insignificant chance your actions can harm someone, you should take precautions to prevent it from harming someone. Not sure what belief has to do with it.

Unless you're arguing that people shouldn't be forced to comply with rules they don't believe are effective (regardless of whether they actually are)?

Let me go through the thought process to try and explain it better:

• There are normally warnings about things I shouldn't eat on the plane for safety.
• There have been no warnings.
• Therefore it is safe to eat what I want.

People are actively encouraged (also kind of forced) to inform the airline about it so they can tell everyone else. A system is in place to inform other passengers of what is unsafe so that they know about it. People are equally capable of saying things like this themselves in a social context. No need for everyone to be preemptively restricting what they say.

If someone has their arm in a sling you probably shouldn't punch them in the arm. This is pretty much the exact same thing.

Side question: Do you think that businesses should be forced to include wheelchair ramps and other handicap accessibility features? Note that these things aren't mere conveniences for people; they're necessities to let them use the facility at all. Also it doesn't result in a net profit for the businesses.

Still doesn't work. An arm in a sling is a visible indicator of what's wrong. The only way to know about people's emotions is if they tell you.

As for accessibility, businesses shouldn't be forced to include them. It would be good if they did, and chances are it is actually a good idea to do so for the business as well, just because there's going to be more potential customers who end up being customers.

More like I can make moral judgements on others. If someone's being a dick I'll call them a dick. I feel ya'll would support my right to do so. (though I'll accept criticisms along the lines of it being inappropriate for the situation)

Not really inappropriate for the situation, it's just not conducive to an unlocked thread. Then of course I replied in turn because I am human and so prone to conflict over petty matters.


Well, after this I'll have to give up the floor for kaijyuu to get the last word because this conversation will likely be dead by the time I get back to it tomorrow.

[kaijyuu]

Well, after this I'll have to give up the floor for kaijyuu to get the last word because this conversation will likely be dead by the time I get back to it tomorrow.

Naw I'll let you have it. I was getting kind of tired of the conversation myself, and I feel I got ya to think about your position more than you had previously, which is a win for me even if you still disagree (or even disagree more than before).

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler: Work Rant (click to show/hide)

So for the last couple of weeks, there's been this company meeting planned. Strategic meeting, big company issues, margaritas to be served, ect...I was kinda looking forward to kicking back, drinking on the clock and talking about how things need to move forward.

And instead I was stuck with a customer with a GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING ODBC 3.51 CONNECTOR THAT WILL NOT FUCKING DELETE. It'd been another upgrade I was dreading and somehow, it all went as planned. Except this part. That signaled it would be a problem right as the upgrade started. So I'm pouring through Google searches to figure out the issue, trying them, none are working. Phone starts ringing. Random people asking me about shit no one gave me heads up on. Guy who is confused how to run a report and then when I run it the right way, starts to argue with me it's broke because he doesn't see the data expects. Turns out his guys aren't even entering the data. Meanwhile the entire company is upstairs, where I'd like to be.

So I finally say fuck it, and head up stairs (the 2nd or 3rd time I'd attempted to do so.) As usual the junior developer is tacitly being called out by the lead developer. I'm already angry as fuck, irrationally so I realize. And then the discussion about when to have these meetings comes up and everyone is like "Oh the mornings."

IE the times support generally is the busiest because of some fucking fire someone started the night before. I very reasonably say "There's no way I'll make those meetings."

And my boss goes "Well, there's no reason for all of support to be up here."

And I ask "Well, do you want input or not?"

And he says "Yes. But there's no reason for all of you to be up here."

And so I say "Are we going to choose a tech support lead (a role no one has been willing or able to fill since before I started there) then to collect issues and disseminate information? And he says "Yeah, we should have a meeting about that."

Remind you, were a company of less than 20 people. This isn't some mammoth organization that requires meetings, team leads for a team of 2.5 and what not. Meetings are often a convenient way to delay a decision at my company, and just spawn more meetings when they do happen.

And that's not really even the point. The point is, bottom bitches at our company, i.e., me and the other tech support guy, get almost no consideration for our opinions when it comes to the bigger picture. We're there to do the grunt work, hop when someone snaps their fingers, hop when the phone rings, act as the advocate for the customer and generally give of our time and energy (like everyone) while having the least weight attached to our opinions. Or, indeed, our presence, unless it involves learning something so the whole company doesn't look stupid in front of customers or to fill in the timeline of a disaster. We're also paid the lowest (in a company not famous for paying high wages.)

And it's kinda like.....I just got done sweating over a customer upgrade that was so fucked up from the way things used to be done, and getting slammed out of nowhere with phone calls at 4pm on a Monday.....and my presence isn't really necessary? Like I'm not a vital goddamn part of your fucking business where it is my job to apologize for it half the time?

But I guess when it comes to "strategic" matters, our input isn't valuable, nor our wishes. It's not even that I disagree with him that we all need to be part of it. It was the combination of the high stress and clean up this job requires, and basically being dismissed in the same half hour period by my boss in my supposedly flat company. Shit, whenever anyone says that no one cares about how the business is doing or what it's doing, I'm the first to say "I care! I want to know!" And then for the guy who fucking complains that no one cares, to tell me that I or anyone doesn't need to be there for it?

Fuck that. I like my boss as a person, but I'm coming to loathe his management style. This is after last week I watched him and another developer go head to head and get personal over where to put some fucking bullshit in the UI. Here's a hint boss: don't shit on the people whose backs your company is built on. There aren't enough people here for you to stare over my head while you do that, and all the booze and events will not salve people's anger when it's "game time" and you're being Mr. Assertive in meetings and being an asshole

I mean I don't even bring that much to meetings, technical or otherwise. I'm self-aware enough to know that. But considering 40% of the people there are wall flowers unless directly engaged, how much fucking benefit do they bring? For a company that was pitched to me as supposedly being flat, being treated like a grunt not only stings, it infuriates. Maybe I should just take my cue from another friend who works there, and stop attending all non-mandatory meetings. Of course, giving a shit is the only thing that makes the job doable for me. So that's not a road I want to start down, because I'm bitter enough as it is.

I appreciate the rage. Have you considered communism?

Communism sucks in practice.

Yes but when you break everything with lots of other people then it's a revolution, not vandalism. Viva la tech support!

[kaenneth]

Spoiler: Work Rant (click to show/hide)

So for the last couple of weeks, there's been this company meeting planned. Strategic meeting, big company issues, margaritas to be served, ect...I was kinda looking forward to kicking back, drinking on the clock and talking about how things need to move forward.

And instead I was stuck with a customer with a GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING ODBC 3.51 CONNECTOR THAT WILL NOT FUCKING DELETE. It'd been another upgrade I was dreading and somehow, it all went as planned. Except this part. That signaled it would be a problem right as the upgrade started. So I'm pouring through Google searches to figure out the issue, trying them, none are working. Phone starts ringing. Random people asking me about shit no one gave me heads up on. Guy who is confused how to run a report and then when I run it the right way, starts to argue with me it's broke because he doesn't see the data expects. Turns out his guys aren't even entering the data. Meanwhile the entire company is upstairs, where I'd like to be.

So I finally say fuck it, and head up stairs (the 2nd or 3rd time I'd attempted to do so.) As usual the junior developer is tacitly being called out by the lead developer. I'm already angry as fuck, irrationally so I realize. And then the discussion about when to have these meetings comes up and everyone is like "Oh the mornings."

IE the times support generally is the busiest because of some fucking fire someone started the night before. I very reasonably say "There's no way I'll make those meetings."

And my boss goes "Well, there's no reason for all of support to be up here."

And I ask "Well, do you want input or not?"

And he says "Yes. But there's no reason for all of you to be up here."

And so I say "Are we going to choose a tech support lead (a role no one has been willing or able to fill since before I started there) then to collect issues and disseminate information? And he says "Yeah, we should have a meeting about that."

Remind you, were a company of less than 20 people. This isn't some mammoth organization that requires meetings, team leads for a team of 2.5 and what not. Meetings are often a convenient way to delay a decision at my company, and just spawn more meetings when they do happen.

And that's not really even the point. The point is, bottom bitches at our company, i.e., me and the other tech support guy, get almost no consideration for our opinions when it comes to the bigger picture. We're there to do the grunt work, hop when someone snaps their fingers, hop when the phone rings, act as the advocate for the customer and generally give of our time and energy (like everyone) while having the least weight attached to our opinions. Or, indeed, our presence, unless it involves learning something so the whole company doesn't look stupid in front of customers or to fill in the timeline of a disaster. We're also paid the lowest (in a company not famous for paying high wages.)

And it's kinda like.....I just got done sweating over a customer upgrade that was so fucked up from the way things used to be done, and getting slammed out of nowhere with phone calls at 4pm on a Monday.....and my presence isn't really necessary? Like I'm not a vital goddamn part of your fucking business where it is my job to apologize for it half the time?

But I guess when it comes to "strategic" matters, our input isn't valuable, nor our wishes. It's not even that I disagree with him that we all need to be part of it. It was the combination of the high stress and clean up this job requires, and basically being dismissed in the same half hour period by my boss in my supposedly flat company. Shit, whenever anyone says that no one cares about how the business is doing or what it's doing, I'm the first to say "I care! I want to know!" And then for the guy who fucking complains that no one cares, to tell me that I or anyone doesn't need to be there for it?

Fuck that. I like my boss as a person, but I'm coming to loathe his management style. This is after last week I watched him and another developer go head to head and get personal over where to put some fucking bullshit in the UI. Here's a hint boss: don't shit on the people whose backs your company is built on. There aren't enough people here for you to stare over my head while you do that, and all the booze and events will not salve people's anger when it's "game time" and you're being Mr. Assertive in meetings and being an asshole

I mean I don't even bring that much to meetings, technical or otherwise. I'm self-aware enough to know that. But considering 40% of the people there are wall flowers unless directly engaged, how much fucking benefit do they bring? For a company that was pitched to me as supposedly being flat, being treated like a grunt not only stings, it infuriates. Maybe I should just take my cue from another friend who works there, and stop attending all non-mandatory meetings. Of course, giving a shit is the only thing that makes the job doable for me. So that's not a road I want to start down, because I'm bitter enough as it is.

Support is an Expense they would rather you just disappeared, Sales is Revenue they want growth there.

[kaenneth]

A small space like a plane with recycled air is a genuine situation where you'd wanna avoid eating peanuts if someone with allergens is actually in the same section though.

I've read air quality in airplanes has really dropped since they banned smoking; they used to have to filter/exchange the air, now they don't bother with the expense.

[nenjin]

Don't get me wrong. I like making money. And I don't mind doing the grunt work, because someone has to and frankly I'm better at rote things these days. In fact I think I've always taken pride in being able to do grunt work. (This job has apparently fried more than 1 person working it.)

But I don't like being treated like a grunt. And I'm getting a little tired of mixed messages from my boss when it comes to where everyone gets to stand in the company. Like if you go back 6 months to my rant about the new buildout area. Same shit, different expressions of it.

For anyone that has ever poo-poo'd a traditional jobby job, with a traditional boss, traditional office culture, I'll say this......one thing it offers is consistency and structure. Working for a small business with a boss who dreams big and has a company that punches above its weight, where there's little to no structure....it can be really infuriating sometimes. Not knowing what to expect. Having expectations change on you depending on what the boss decided to pay attention to this week. It's worst as bottom bitch because you're ostensibly the least able to say "This is how it's going to be." And even some that have done that have had the boss swoop in and change it at the last minute. Being able to say "I'm going to come in at 9 or 10 or 11 today", something about 3/4 of the company gets to do (not tech support!) is well and great, until the boss suddenly changes his mind and gets pissed off because no one is in the office before 10 or 11am. Pisses me off plenty but it's not my position to say something about it. And I'm not throwing stones. I've taken 2 hour unpaid lunches before, plenty of times. I partake of all the freedom too. But working here is a chaotic mishmash of "figure it out" and "this is how it's going to be." And after a while it starts to get frustrating.

Also, I went back to google, researched the problem again, found a lead, remoted into the customer's server and fixed it, along with a whole bunch of other shit I was too rushed to work on earlier. And I did it from my house. I'm hourly so I clocked that shit. It's things like this I wish I could show to my boss without looking like a complete asshole, as proof I care and that acting like us not being part of the bigger picture isn't a big deal is basically shitting on my effort.

And tomorrow, I go off to auction. *sigh* At least this time I'm guaranteed to be getting paid the extra wage this whole freaking side-job-of-my-job was sold to me on.

A small space like a plane with recycled air is a genuine situation where you'd wanna avoid eating peanuts if someone with allergens is actually in the same section though.

I've read air quality in airplanes has really dropped since they banned smoking; they used to have to filter/exchange the air, now they don't bother with the expense.

Hah!

[kisame12794]

This fucking modem. To activate the internet I need to enter the IP into a browser, and login using the defaults. But, surprise! The defaults don't work! Okay, reset to factory default. Hey, guess what? Still don't work! AHAHAHAHAH. I've been trying to get this to work for three hours now, and nothing. So, now I gotta wait till tomorrow to either take it back, or call tech support, because it's 9:30 at night, and I have to be up at 5:00 in the morning tomorrow. God dammit, all I want is better internet.

[BlackFlyme]

Door was open most of the day.

Mosquitoes everywhere.

[Tiruin]

Door was open most of the day.

Mosquitoes everywhere.

I know that pain.
...
Kill them all :X
^{And/or, find their breeding zone and kill them all.}