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[XXSockXX]

I don't remember much about my sex ed classes, except that everybody already knew most of the stuff, except for biological details. There are plenty of media aimed at teaching that stuff to children or teenagers readily available, but that's a cultural difference I guess.

I guess in an age where everyone is just one click away from having hardcore pornography on their phone, more detailled instructions might indeed be necessary, so ideas about sex don't become too distorted by that.

[Tiruin]

I don't think schools should educate people.

Pfft. Education rots the brain.

I don't think its the big picture that's the problem--but the little details. There are many people who have to retake subject 'x', when the problem is in the free choice of the student. There are many students who already grasp the concept of a subject, yet there exists the syllabus which details a process by which 'learning' is given.

Which somehow, does not consider personal learning rates or how the student, individually, learns. I'd disagree with you two here, but agree on what you'd probably imply: There are wrongs in our educational system, and I am lost to wonder why those who govern us (or..you? Second person works.) cannot act for reforms on this process.


Skimming over last details: I'll give a RL example.

Here in the Philippines, we don't have sex ed classes. Our biology/gen science teachers explain that process--mostly only when asked as the curriculum doesn't demand that kind of notes. Henceforth, there are many individuals in my country who...do not know the exacts of sex, its consequences, how it works, and the general details behind the thinking or belief.

Though, our culture acts as a preventive measure--parents are the ones who teach their children about sex ed, resulting in a...streamlined, (yet partly subjective) range of knowledge on the subject. If the parents don't teach their children, they pick up the knowledge from other sources...and some of those do not elucidate such a touchy subject, which leads to misunderstanding and...well. Ignorance, in general.

Most stuffs through word of mouth, coupled with the probable perversion that goes around (I haven't been exposed to such so I can only guess by empirical data,) doesn't aid thinking like that, and especially with the spread of the internet and lacking guidance (and not enforcement, GUIDANCE) with how to treat such a trove of knowledge?

...Values need to be enforced. Sometimes I find myself shaking my head in disbelief on how knowledge can be so free yet so...misused.

[XXSockXX]

I guess what revolutionized sex ed in Germany much more than classes were teen magazines like Bravo, which has a pretty detailed and graphic sex ed section. That's really where most people used to get their sex ed from - even if just by osmosis.

[Lagslayer]

...Values need to be enforced. Sometimes I find myself shaking my head in disbelief on how knowledge can be so free yet so...misused.

+1. Morality, ethics, and values are important for giving society any sort of cohesion. Exactly what code of conduct should be reinforced is another can of worms entirely.

[nenjin]

No, it's really this can of worms I think. This is really a battle over what values we sanction the State to teach. We explicitly grant some, deny others. (Patriotism vs. Religion, for example.) Unfortunately, sex lies between several issues, from public health, to personal development and well being, to religion. The State most definitely has a vested interest in sex education, but does it trump a parents' right to reserve that knowledge for their own household? I believe it does. There's just too many reasons why that knowledge needs to be out there, if for nothing else than to let kids think and learn independently. Let the values be taught in the home, let the knowledge be spread in the schools.

[wierd]

From what I have seen, the predominant religious opinion is that kids shouldn't be having sex.

From the public health standpoint, kids shouldn't be having sex.

From the social support perspective, kids shouldn't be having sex.

From the freelove standpoint, kids should be allowed to have as much sex as they want, cause like, it's their bodies and stuff, and they should get to choose for themselves if sex is right for them and stuff.


I'm sorry, but I don't see how this last perspective can be endorsed by somebody that actually cares about the children's futures. Children simply don't have the experiences needed to make that choice rationally. Pretending they do is not wise.

[Vector]

Children are making the decision whether you want them to or not.  The question is whether or not they're going to get pregnant or infected with an STI.  That's what you've got some modicum of control over.  Not the other thing.

[nenjin]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this last perspective can be endorsed by somebody that actually cares about the children's futures.

It can't because it's a straw man and you know it.

Let me re-write it for you: Kids are going to do what they damn well please, until parental supervision reaches supernatural and/or morally unacceptable levels. The best anyone can do, State or Parent, is given them the information (schools if necessary) and values (home for damn sure) so they that whatever they do they're making an informed decision.

ninja'd by Vector

[Frumple]

Ninja'd, but... no, from the public health and social support standpoint (at least the better of the two, anyway), kids will be having sex and everything that can be done to mitigate the consequences thereof should be pursued.

And hell, wierd, most adults don't have the experiences they need to make the choice rationally, or bother doing so even if they do. If age isn't going to make much of a meaningful difference, might as well start the process of providing information young, I say. Better to have and not need than need and not have.

[wierd]

And yet, there is an argument over weather teaching abstanence as first choice is proper. See metal slime hunt's objections earlier.

You can still tell kids the straight up truth, and tell them that having sex at their age is incredibly foolish.

They are not exclusive.

You can't stop people from being dumb. You CAN tell them that doing what comes naturally is extremely foolish.


If you guys will *please* kindly note, I have not, nor am I endorsing child ignorance.
Saying "they will just do it anyway!" Is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You still have to try. If you don't, you are being just as irresponsible as not telling them about birth control and its risks.

[XXSockXX]

Massive ninja attack...

From a realistic standpoint at least some kids are going to have sex no matter what you tell them, and from a public health and social standpoint that sex better not result in pregnancy or STD. So should you present these kids with some guidance or leave them with whatever they pick up on the internet or by themselves?
Ultimately it comes down to religion, which shouldn't really be a concern, but is one, because it has a massive influence in the US.

[wierd]

See, here is how I see such a line of argument.


"People will always have arguments and fights. Since it is going to happen anyway, why shouldn't we tell people about the risks of jail and the risks associated with violence?"

I reply:

"Yes. Teaching people about violence is very good-- but you should also let them know in no uncertain terms that violence is NOT something you do."


If you are going to go there, then you have already lost.
"But they are going to do it anyway, so why tell them that? Why not let them decide for themselves?"

[nenjin]

It's the best compromise between all varied American's value-based beliefs. "Trying" is at the end of the day is saying "Look, sex is complicated. The best way for it to not be complicated is to not have it. If you end up having sex, know the risk and mitigate the risk the best you can."

The goal is them joining the club that is being older than 18 and not having a baby or an STD, or worse. A club that, when you get down to it, is not that exclusive. 

Ultimately it comes down to religion, which shouldn't really be a concern, but is one, because it has a massive influence in the US.

Again, I think religion is a dodge in this issue. You don't need to be religious to have a moral philosophy that percludes kids having sex before 18. It's just religious people are the most vocal and vehement about it. (And it's also the law.)

"But they are going to do it anyway, so why tell them that? Why not let them decide for themselves?"

It's called life. People don't just magically learn stuff, even smart people. Humanity learns by burning its hand. The teaching is so they don't stick their whole hand into the fire.

[wierd]

See, I have an ethical problem with making the leap from "because they will want to try it, we should tell them flat out that it is f*kning dumb, because it is, and why" to "because they are going to do it anyway, it is pointless to tell them."

I remember being a kid, and I remember the attitudes of my peers. Many felt they were SUPPOSED to be having sex.

That needs to change. The only way that will happen is to change the message from "its ok little snowflake", to "No, that is f*cking dumb, and you shouldn't be doing it."


You can't save the people that are too bullheaded, or too dumb to listen. You can save the ones that are reasonable and are smart enough to listen. Telling them is how you save them. Not telling them, and washing your hands of it is irresponsible.

We have sex ed in the first place to teach the ones that will listen.

No amount of sex ed in the universe will help the ones that won't.

[nenjin]

They talk about peer pressure in school in regards to sex, just like they do with drugs and alcohol. I got that speech. "You don't HAVE to have sex if you don't want to."

My desire is to be honest with kids, and treat them like the adults they're going to be in just a very few short years. "Look, sex is human and natural, and yes, damnit, it's fun! It's also dangerous, life-altering and can have many, many, MANY unforseen consequences. It's not something to do lightly, drunkenly or without the facts."

It's better than just hoping and praying that statistically, parents take the time to talk to them and have a balanced viewpoint. I honestly think a parent who reduces sex down to "just make sure it gets wrapped up" is doing their kid a disservice because the reality is much more nuanced than that, and that kind of incomplete preparation is just the kind of thing kids don't take seriously until it's too late.