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[Graknorke]

As it stands, you'd make a terrifically devout Christian if you weren't so opposed to the evangelical and social norms the church espouses, and not believing in god.

Doesn't that apply to everyone?

[GlyphGryph]

It's about seeing it as a just world, where morality reigns foremost above all other concerns.

And this, to me, reminds me of one of the fundamental and truly terrifying pieces of religion for me, personally. Of all the things that stand in the way of a world I'd truly want to live in, the Just World fallacy is one of the most powerful, dangerous, and insidious.

The world isn't just. Justice is something you have to earn, and craft, and carefully tend to if you want it to survive. Goodness is something that has to be cultivated and reinforced if you want it to be commonplace and consistent. The world is not good. It is not just. It does not care. It is our responsibility to see to it that we are just and good - there are no excuses that will justify our actions, and we do not have the ability to fall back on saying "If I were wrong, then I wouldn't be so successful." The world does not reward us for doing the right thing, and the rewards we receive are not due to any inherent universal morality incentivizing our actions.

The idea that the world is just is an idea that lets evil flourish.

[nenjin]

My issue with the whole "living prophets" thing is that their word is unimpeachable within the church. It's an article of faith that not just one guy, but 12 guys have a direct line to god and everything that comes out of their mouths is considered to come out of His. And when you consider the back story of Mormonism.....yeah.

[Nadaka]

One of the main precepts is, for example, (and this is for all religion), a belief in a moral structure for the world, as opposed to the bleakness of straight atheism(which, it is. Humans don't inherently need to be good, and evolution dictates, they shouldn't be, except to the extent that being a social animal dictates they need be.).

The sheer amount of misconceptions people have with atheism and secular morality, even on the internet where this information is incredibly readily available, is staggering. I am remembering countless people who assume evolution has anything to do with morality.

A moral framework based on rationality is more moral than an arbitrary moral framework based on supernatural punishment/reward, even if both moralities are functionally the same. A good secular morality promotes moral action because it is the right thing to do. Not because you risk punishment.

[Solifuge]

My issue with the whole "living prophets" thing is that their word is unimpeachable within the church. It's an article of faith that not just one guy, but 12 guys have a direct line to god and everything that comes out of their mouths is considered to come out of His. And when you consider the back story of Mormonism.....yeah.

That would be my primary issue with dogmatic religions in general; when a person's words and ideas are treated as unquestionable, unimpeachable fact. It opens the door to a lot of hate and suffering, when people shelve their judgement in favor of someone else's, especially when that someone lacks a good heart/head. It's not an issue of spirituality or the religion itself, but more an issue of morality and truth... and how those can be set aside when people seek respect and power over other people in that way.

[kaenneth]

Religion is a way to civilize stupid people, who are smart/wise enough to do what's right without it.

If you're only nice to other people due to fear of divine punishment (Jehova/Santa Clause), you aren't actually a nice person.

[misko27]

Spoiler: The discussion is still off-topic! (click to show/hide)

I've noticed something else too. People, simply cannot understand, other people. They simply can't. You can try, but you can't. It is not possible. Humans are inherently too diverse. You can understand some of them, but the fact that some people genuinely prefer, say, iron-fisted authoritarianism over democracy, and aren't being blinded or misled or anything, simply does not occur to say, libertarians. It simply doesn't.

One of the main precepts is, for example, (and this is for all religion), a belief in a moral structure for the world, as opposed to the bleakness of straight atheism(which, it is. Humans don't inherently need to be good, and evolution dictates, they shouldn't be, except to the extent that being a social animal dictates they need be.).

The sheer amount of misconceptions people have with atheism and secular morality, even on the internet where this information is incredibly readily available, is staggering. I am remembering countless people who assume evolution has anything to do with morality.

A moral framework based on rationality is more moral than an arbitrary moral framework based on supernatural punishment/reward, even if both moralities are functionally the same. A good secular morality promotes moral action because it is the right thing to do. Not because you risk punishment.

You have made my point. It is, for you. For me it is stupid. What does right thing to do mean? It is completely up to interpretation, and those are as wide-ranging as can be. Religion is one of those answers. And, I can tell you this right now, and I demand that you don't contradict me. Religion is not, about, fear. It is not. If you think this, you are thinking of phony superficiality which pervades   religion. It is not, about, fear. A man without fear is not a man without faith. (now I'm drawing from "Philosophy and Superheroes, specifically the section on Daredevil"). Think about the Martyrs who threw themselves to the lions. Are they, scared? Are Suicide Bombers scared? People who hold it in a time where it is punished, the Jews for millennia? Any religion during Communism?

And to quote Rabbi Ben from Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors:

It’s a fundamental difference in the way we view the world. I couldn’t go on living if I didn’t feel with all my heart a moral structure with real meaning and forgiveness, and some kind of higher power

Just trying to fight the notion here on bay12 and on the internet in general that religion is some sort of blind faith and/or god-fearing hicks:

Religion is a way to civilize stupid people, who are smart/wise enough to do what's right without it.

If you're only nice to other people due to fear of divine punishment (Jehova/Santa Clause), you aren't actually a nice person.

Like this guy. I thank you for your appropriately timed comment.

My issue with the whole "living prophets" thing is that their word is unimpeachable within the church. It's an article of faith that not just one guy, but 12 guys have a direct line to god and everything that comes out of their mouths is considered to come out of His. And when you consider the back story of Mormonism.....yeah.

That would be my primary issue with dogmatic religions in general; when a person's words and ideas are treated as unquestionable, unimpeachable fact. It opens the door to a lot of hate and suffering, when people shelve their judgement in favor of someone, especially when that someone lacks a good heart/head. It's not an issue of spirituality or the religion itself, but more an issue of morality and truth... and how those can be set aside when people seek respect and power over other people in that way.

Kinda a problem with all positions of power though. A mister Assad comes to mind. Only difference is anyone can be a religious leader, assuming they are convincing enough.

[Nadaka]

I didn't say that faith = fear. I said that christian morality is taught using fear, and that is undeniably true.

The phrase "A god fearing man" is not a grammatical misinterpretation. The certainty of faith creates a great deal of fear when the that you believe in is terrifying. The intentional induction of fear is a self reenforcing method for compliance. Thousands of years of religious history contradict your assertion that religion is not pervaded with fear or that it does not use fear to further its ends.  Whitewashing your history is a good way to repeat it.

[Dutchling]

And to quote Rabbi Ben from Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors:

It’s a fundamental difference in the way we view the world. I couldn’t go on living if I didn’t feel with all my heart a moral structure with real meaning and forgiveness, and some kind of higher power

Believing in something doesn't make it true. No offense, but to me this sounds a lot like this:

It’s a fundamental difference in the way we view the world. I couldn’t go on living if I didn’t feel with all my heart that dragons are real and fucking awesome

[Euld]

I thought the fear in "a god fearing mean" was an anachronism, like this use of fear is meant to mean to respect and obey.  Like you would respect and obey your parents, your king, what have you.  Not literally fear.  I... I figured this is what it meant and I'm still weirded out by debates about it o_o

[Dutchling]

It's the exact same word (meaning, fear) in Dutch. So if it's some sort of grammatical thing it's pretty old.

[misko27]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I didn't say that faith = fear. I said that christian morality is taught using fear, and that is undeniably true.

The phrase "A god fearing man" is not a grammatical misinterpretation. The certainty of faith creates a great deal of fear when the that you believe in is terrifying. The intentional induction of fear is a self reenforcing method for compliance. Thousands of years of religious history contradict your assertion that religion is not pervaded with fear or that it does not use fear to further its ends.  Whitewashing your history is a good way to repeat it.

First off, all the martyrs and persecuted people throughout the past 200 years alone would like to have a word with you.

Second, I am just saying that people who believe in god for superficial reason are not all there is, and it should not be said otherwise. Every religion, even atheism (My friends are atheist) can have such superficial attraction, or people who choose it for calculated reasons.

And to quote Rabbi Ben from Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors:

It’s a fundamental difference in the way we view the world. I couldn’t go on living if I didn’t feel with all my heart a moral structure with real meaning and forgiveness, and some kind of higher power

Believing in something doesn't make it true. No offense, but to me this sounds a lot like this:

It’s a fundamental difference in the way we view the world. I couldn’t go on living if I didn’t feel with all my heart that dragons are real and fucking awesome

First off, true? Morality is defined by humanity, not science. There is no Scientific law that says Murder is morally objectionable. It is Humans who decide this. Dragons don't exist, that is a objective fact. Morality, is not objective, is not black and white, nor easily measurable. (Dragons also aren't a world view, unfortunately).

And another quote from the same movie:

May: Wait a minute. Are you telling me that you prefer God to the truth?
Sol: If it is necessary, I will always choose God over truth.

I will never compromise my morals due to what others tell me is true. And, again, another thing, Religion is not all about god. it is about, a system of values, no matter how many Evangelicals spin it into madness, or how many people think that god not existing means all of religion is bunkum.

Now I am defending all religion against most of bay12. Great.  I wanted to say something the values Christians actually have, but I ended up defending religion as a concept. I would simply like it for the internet to stop being a Atheist's Evangelical. I have my beliefs, and you have your's. Your's is not inherently better then mine.

[Dutchling]

And another quote from the same movie:

May: Wait a minute. Are you telling me that you prefer God to the truth?
Sol: If it is necessary, I will always choose God over truth.

I will never compromise my morals due to what others tell me is true. And, again, another thing, Religion is not all about god. it is about, a system of values, no matter how many Evangelicals spin it into madness, or how many people think that god not existing means all of religion is bunkum.

;_;

I fear our 'morals' simply differ too much to ever come to an agreement.

[Nadaka]

You also mistake a rational basis of morality with an arbitrary assertion of what "the right thing to do" means. A rational morality is anything but arbitrary. It provides a reason and context for every assertion. So no, I did not at all prove your point, not at all.

[Nadaka]

I thought the fear in "a god fearing mean" was an anachronism, like this use of fear is meant to mean to respect and obey.  Like you would respect and obey your parents, your king, what have you.  Not literally fear.  I... I figured this is what it meant and I'm still weirded out by debates about it o_o

Respect and obey because they will hurt you if you don't. Parents have the authority to punish their children. Kings have the authority to imprison, torture or execute their subjects. Gods have the authority to unmake you, or to damn you to eternal torment.