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[Korbac]

Nenjin, I see what you're saying. You too, SalmonGod. Especially in Dota, if you're caught out of position, you just get a stun plopped on your head and there we go - you gotta wait till you respawn.

That said (at least in Dota) there are some things you can do if you're fast enough. Stun the other guy first. Activate RUNAWAY boots, active RUNAWAY staff, activate RUNAWAY dagger, activate RUNAWAY skill. If you do this, and the enemy has 'tag - teamed' you, they've lost a lot of gold and xp on a fruitless endeavour.

I don't know about LoL but Dota definitely has a variable meta, even within updates. True, there are many heroes which aren't used competitively at the moment, but there are quite a lot which are and quite a lot more which I think are viable but just don't get chosen for the reason you stated.

About the 'gank reward' thing... Yeah, that can be kind of true depending on the sort of guy you are. It's a game where kills really make a lot of difference (unsurprisingly), so putting someone on the sidelines for 60 seconds does feel damn good, especially if you've been the one kicked around for ages.

Bear in mind that I enjoy these game while being the recipient of ganks and buttfuckery and such while pretty much never pulling them off myself - I play the 'boring' support role in 90% of my matches, and I still find it fun.

[Solifuge]

LoL and MOBAs just aren't the games for me. I find the dancing around each other until you can arrange a gank to be some of the dumbest gameplay I've ever participated in. The entire game revolves around getting that competitive advantage in the first few minutes of the game, then steam rolling the competition. The hiding in the bushes, the attacking someone then running away to lure them into a turret, the jungling, maximizing your XP killing creeps so you don't fall behind...

Fuck those games. As someone who primarily plays FPS when I feel like being competitive, I feel like LoL is a game built around everything besides direct competition. And once someone opens a gap or you get tag teamed...you might as well just stand there and let them kill you.

Honestly, the thing I like about MOBAs (granted, I haven't seen a MOBA that's really mastered the execution yet) is that it's not just about direct competition. It's got a great focus on larger-scale strategy, where players guide the pace and flow of the battle itself, rather than everyone being a Big Damn Hero and kersploding everything all the time. There's room to reward players who prefer cautious and tactical play, as well as folks with quick reflexes and wits.

MOBAs are about working as a team to change the flow of the battle, and out-thinking and out-maneuvering your opponents strategies. I don't really care for current Competative Level play (it's too regimented and formulaic) but I think it's a genre with a lot of potential.

[SalmonGod]

I've heard DOTA has much more variability to its meta, but it's also even more punishing than LoL.  More esoteric knowledge involved and harsher snowballing.

[Korbac]

I've heard DOTA has much more variability to its meta, but it's also even more punishing than LoL.  More esoteric knowledge involved and harsher snowballing.

From what I've played of LoL, the snowballing factor is roughly equal. There is still quite a lot of it but if the losing team holds out to lategame often the team with the hardest carries / best teamfight / most co-ordination wins.

Also, no goddamn brush in Dota, hehe.

[nenjin]

but think all those points were exaggerated a bit.

I'll cop to that, but those are basically my worst day scenario games. I played LoL with a bunch of fairly talented, complete trolls. I kind of took them as your baseline pre-built in LoL. I've had games that are less like that....but in general, it's not a game where you square off against anyone. It's a game where you and all your tactical advantage square off against someone...be that another team member, your additional levels or your build. And I really hate the fact there's a clock running on your every in-game minute, and if you're not doing something with it...you're falling behind.

[RedKing]

It's the FPS equivalent of being a sniper shooting a guy with a pistol from 2000m away and then laughing and furiously masturbating after you get your kill.

That's actually been my basic experience in most FPS. That's why I don't play them anymore. If I stop running in erratic motions for even half a second, I get headshotted by some campy fuck with a sniper rifle two minutes into the game. If I try to engage someone at close range, they hop around like a ferret on crack while reducing me to a fine red mist. Not my cup of tea warm piss.

[Solifuge]

Yeah, I'm definitely not always fond of the intensity of MOBAs like LoL, or most Shooters for that matter. I think a slightly more relaxed pace, and/or a greater focus on the metastrategic elements would benefit the game. I'd like to see a MOBA where you were not as powerful a character, and the main goal was to guide your minion waves in a push or defense, building items to support them or hinder your opponents minions, predicting and countering your opponents strategies, and generally acting as sculptor of the flow of the battle, rather than leader of the Vanguard, always on the lookout for attempts on your life, or opportunities to assassinate other players.

My ideal MOBA would be the Bonsai of RTS Games.

[RedKing]

Yeah, I'm definitely not always fond of the intensity of MOBAs like LoL, or most Shooters for that matter. I think a slightly more relaxed pace, and/or a greater focus on the metastrategic elements would benefit the game. I'd like to see a MOBA where you were not as powerful a character, and the main goal was to guide your minion waves in a push or defense, building items to support them or hinder your opponents minions, predicting and countering your opponents strategies, and generally acting as sculptor of the flow of the battle, rather than leader of the Vanguard, always on the lookout for attempts on your life, or opportunities to assassinate other players.

My ideal MOBA would be the Bonsai of RTS Games.

Have you played Demigod? I really liked the fact that you could support a battle by just staying in the rear area accumulating gold and using it to upgrade the minion waves, the towers, etc. So even if you suck at the PvP aspect of things, you could contribute meaningfully.

[Frumple]

Mm... there were several AoS maps that had notable minion interaction, honestly. Steps in the right direction, if not really there yet due largely to SC/WC3 engine limitations.

Just as soon as the AoS style at large gets around to pulling its head out of DotA's ass we might actually see some interesting stuff again. Everything public so far still have their craniums pretty firmly ensconced in Ancient sphincter.

[Frumple]

Woah, doublepost.

[Putnam]

Goddamn League of Legends. I just watched one of our players, who spent like a minute standing still and raging at our team while we died, and one of the enemy's players, whose first comment after the game was "don't play ranked if you're going to feed, idiots" talk about how much their teams were trolls and how nice they each were.

I just played a DOTA 2 match where one person (my laning partner) was... kinda bad. I was the first person to think to buy a courier, but that didn't stop him from running all the way back to base at level 3 to buy healing salve or whatever, leaving me with the two guys on the other team who were level 4 each.

(though I was level 6)

[penguinofhonor]

At least he was just bad. I don't really care about people who are just bad.

[Putnam]

He also chatted obnoxiously whenever he was killed by the other team's doom (who killed me often too, not that I complained).

[Korbac]

He also chatted obnoxiously whenever he was killed by the other team's doom (who killed me often too, not that I complained).

Welcome to Dota! Prepare to have many people on your team die and blame it on you (not that you could have done anything!)

What baffles me most is that I don't know anybody who acts like this. I don't think you would, Putnam. Umi doesn't. I don't. Kagus doesn't. Even my friends, who tends to be... easily upset IRL, do not flame madly when they die. What sort of people do this?!?! :/

[Descan]

Kind of people who don't -have- friends. Or think it's funny?