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[nenjin]

Whoops, sorry, that was KoF that posted that, not you.

[scriver]

I'm kind of more bothered by people who seem to be angry at the mother. I mean, that's not the actions of somebody who believes they have a better choice. It's the actions of somebody who is completely desperate or not quite right in the head.

I don't give a shit how desperate or crazy you are, infanticide is an inexcusable act.

I'd agree. Kind of how like murdering a puppy because you can't take care of it isn't a humane solution to your problems.

I mean, fuck, have the baby, leave it on the counter so someone finds it and gives it to Child Services. Murdering your baby is something you do because you don't want to get caught, which has absolutely everything to do with you and has absolutely zero consideration for the life you created.

Also Nadaka, got a news article to go with this? Not like I doubt you, it just seems like the kind of thing that would make the news.

Mentally ill or developmentally challenged people might not have enough knowledge of the world to know that, and lack the ability or social network to find out. Don't blame the woman, blame the people and society who wasn't there for her.


 

I mean people, there's a thing called a orphanage people, give a baby a chance.
 
And the worst part is in some places, like NY state, you can literally leave it in the hospital you had it. No questions asked. The epitome of lazyness. And the worst part of THAT is it Still happens..

People don't leave babies at hospitals because they're lazy, Misko. They leave them because they can't take care of them.

[penguinofhonor]

My phone refuses to say it's connected to wi-fi. Even when I turn off 3G and open the internet, it'll tell me it's not connected to wi-fi as it loads pages perfectly fine because it's connected to the goddamn wi-fi.

This doesn't typically matter but I'm trying to get it to sync with my computer through wi-fi whenever I plug it into my wall because it really dislikes most of my computer's USB ports and pretends they don't exist. And it needs to say it's connected to wi-fi to be able to sync like this.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Mentally ill or developmentally challenged people might not have enough knowledge of the world to know that, and lack the ability or social network to find out. Don't blame the woman, blame the people and society who wasn't there for her.

You don't even know anything about this woman, and you're going to hoist the blame for her actions onto all society? That's utterly delusional. Circumstance does not absolve you of responsibility for your actions. She's still a murderer.

[Scelly9]

I mean people, there's a thing called a orphanage people, give a baby a chance.
 
And the worst part is in some places, like NY state, you can literally leave it in the hospital you had it. No questions asked. The epitome of lazyness. And the worst part of THAT is it Still happens..

People don't leave babies at hospitals because they're lazy, Misko. They leave them because they can't take care of them.

He meant that it requires basically no effort to give it to one of those places, not that the reason for leaving them there would be laziness.

[misko27]

I mean people, there's a thing called a orphanage people, give a baby a chance.
 
And the worst part is in some places, like NY state, you can literally leave it in the hospital you had it. No questions asked. The epitome of lazyness. And the worst part of THAT is it Still happens..

People don't leave babies at hospitals because they're lazy, Misko. They leave them because they can't take care of them.

I'm aware of that. My problem is that it is so damn easy to get rid of it if you shouldn't/can't have it, killing it is completely unnecssary. There really is no excuse. I mean no fault, just drop it off. Your parents will hate you? Only a teenager not yet with a job? Husband ran off? They don't care. It's not like anyone has never heard of Orphanages, and even adandoing the baby is substantially better then infanticide.
 
It's pretty much the point of orphanages. THE ENTIRE POINT IS GETTING RID OF BABIES.
 
I'm not blaming the woman. I'm just saying it doesn't excuse baby murder, especially considering the alternatives are easily accesible and well-known.

[scriver]

Mentally ill or developmentally challenged people might not have enough knowledge of the world to know that, and lack the ability or social network to find out. Don't blame the woman, blame the people and society who wasn't there for her.

You don't even know anything about this woman, and you're going to hoist the blame for her actions onto all society? That's utterly delusional. Circumstance does not absolve you of responsibility for your actions. She's still a murderer.

You don't even know anything about her or the circumstances, yet you're putting all the blame on her. That, MSH, is completely unempathic. There are reasons for everything people do, and if you want to think of yourself as a thinking, humane being, you should try to understand them, not give in to some gut reaction about how horrible they are. If you want to think of them as monsters, fine, but the real world doesn't work like that. It doesn't go in black and white.

I mean, iirc, you once stated outright that you would kill people for breaking into your house, and justified that with it being self defence. Does those circumstances excuse you of kurder?

I mean people, there's a thing called a orphanage people, give a baby a chance.
 
And the worst part is in some places, like NY state, you can literally leave it in the hospital you had it. No questions asked. The epitome of lazyness. And the worst part of THAT is it Still happens..

People don't leave babies at hospitals because they're lazy, Misko. They leave them because they can't take care of them.

I'm aware of that. My problem is that it is so damn easy to get rid of it if you shouldn't/can't have it, killing it is completely unnecssary. There really is no excuse. I mean no fault, just drop it off. Your parents will hate you? Only a teenager not yet with a job? Husband ran off? They don't care. It's not like anyone has never heard of Orphanages, and even adandoing the baby is substantially better then infanticide.
 
It's pretty much the point of orphanages. THE ENTIRE POINT IS GETTING RID OF BABIES.
 
I'm not blaming the woman. I'm just saying it doesn't excuse baby murder, especially considering the alternatives are easily accesible and well-known.

You are assuming all people are as mentally stable and able as we are. In the vast majority of these cases, that is not how it is. Not very surprisingly, that's not why they aren't acting rationally. Nenjin said before that "killing your baby is something you do when you want to hide it". Perhaps. But having the baby in a Walmart toilet before drowning it is not what you do if you expect get away with infanticide, at least not if you have the faintest idea of your surroundings. It's what you do when you have no clue of what to do. It's completely irrational, from any viewpoint.

[Facekillz058]

I tried to change my avatar and now, no matter what I do, it keeps getting set back to 'No avatar'.
FUUUUUUUUU.

[misko27]

Well in that case one should view the case as a mad woman murdering a baby who happened to be related to her.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You don't even know anything about her or the circumstances, yet you're putting all the blame on her.

There's no way the blame isn't on her. She did it. Even if she's insane, she still did it, it just means she goes to an asylum instead of prison.

That, MSH, is completely unempathic.

I do not wish to have empathy for child killers.

There are reasons for everything people do, and if you want to think of yourself as a thinking, humane being, you should try to understand them, not give in to some gut reaction about how horrible they are.

It isn't a gut reaction. It is a well-thought out response to how I should view child killers. It is reprehensible beyond even the murder of adults, as an infant does not even have the possibility of defending itself. It is utterly dependent on being defended by older humans, and that is an aggravating factor here.

There is no possible rationalization that excuses this. She's free to harp whatever reason she has to the courts, but I don't think it'll matter.

If you want to think of them as monsters, fine, but the real world doesn't work like that. It doesn't go in black and white.

There is nothing grey about murdering infants. It isn't a moral dilemma, and it certainly isn't a tragedy for her, only her victim.

I mean, iirc, you once stated outright that you would kill people for breaking into your house, and justified that with it being self defence. Does those circumstances excuse you of kurder?

If someone is possibly trying to kill me or those I live with I have no rational choice but to respond with lethal force. So yeah, that would excuse me of killing them. It isn't murder to preserve your own life.

[Reelya]

I'm kind of more bothered by people who seem to be angry at the mother. I mean, that's not the actions of somebody who believes they have a better choice. It's the actions of somebody who is completely desperate or not quite right in the head.

I find it's good to try change slight details about cases like this and see if you'd react the same, or different. What if the female had given birth to the baby, dumped it on the father, then the father had drowned the newborn baby?

Any sympathy in that situation? Justified because he's desperate and not quite right in the head?

[scriver]

1. Why does she go to an asylum instead of a prison?

2. You can't choose which people to have empathy with. If you deliberately deprive yourself of empathy and don't even try to understand people just so you can hate, then you're neither being humane or rational.

3. You just said above, and this is a direct quote: "Circumstance does not absolve you of responsibility for your actions". Apparently, there are circumstances which absolves you of responsibility of your actions, however. When you lack "rational choice", you are allowed to kill. Does a mentally ill person not lack rational choice? Don't somebody who is developmentally challenged?

I'm kind of more bothered by people who seem to be angry at the mother. I mean, that's not the actions of somebody who believes they have a better choice. It's the actions of somebody who is completely desperate or not quite right in the head.

I find it's good to try change slight details about cases like this and see if you'd react the same, or different. What if the female had given birth to the baby, dumped it on the father, then the father had drowned the newborn baby?

Any sympathy in that situation? Justified because he's desperate and not quite right in the head?

It's not a question of justifying, it's a question of understanding that we are all human. And no, I do not think it would be any different just because he would be a man.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

1. Why does she go to an asylum instead of a prison?

She would be going to an asylum instead of a prison in the event she is insane, in which case prison is an inappropriate reaction. If she is sane, however, prison is the appropriate choice. Though depending upon where this took place she may be eligible for a death sentence, and you'd be hard pressed to find a jury that wouldn't give her one (not that I endorse the death penalty, that's just what I think would happen).

2. You can't choose which people to have empathy with. If you deliberately deprive yourself of empathy and don't even try to understand people just so you can hate, then you're neither being humane or rational.

Sure I can. We all chose to sympathize or not in a given situation. Empathy does not just exist without you taking mental action, or at least it doesn't for me.

3. You just said above, and this is a direct quote: "Circumstance does not absolve you of responsibility for your actions". Apparently, there are circumstances which absolves you of responsibility of your actions, however. When you lack "rational choice", you are allowed to kill. Does a mentally ill person not lack rational choice? Don't somebody who is developmentally challenged?

I didn't say that. I said that there was one rational choice, and that was lethal force. I would still be the responsible party for the death of the intruder, I just wouldn't be committing a crime.

The mentally ill and developmentally stunted may or may not lack the capacity rational choice, it depends on the severity of their ailment.

[scriver]

1. To clarify, the question I meant to ask was; But why are insane people sent to asylums instead of prisons?

2. It certainly comes natural to me. Regardless, if you can choose to empathise but do not because you don't want to, the point still applies.

3. Point being - you said "Circumstance does not absolve you of responsibility for your actions". But you claim the circumstance of a burglary absolves you of the responsibility of that murder. Whether it's legal or not is irrelevant, we are talking about moral responsibility.

Furthermore, you feel it is justifiable because it's the only rational choice in that situation. The question then is, what if somebody is not capable of making rational choices at all?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

1. To clarify, the question I meant to ask was; But why are insane people sent to asylums instead of prisons?

Because the purpose of prisons is to punish the sane for their actions. (Theoretically they're supposed to rehabilitate, but who believes that?) Punishing the insane does not prevent them from repeating their actions, indeed very little does, but we try to fix their mental illness all the same.

3. Point being - you said "Circumstance does not absolve you of responsibility for your actions". But you claim the circumstance of a burglary absolves you of the responsibility of that murder. Whether it's legal or not is irrelevant, we are talking about moral responsibility.

Obviously it is never a good thing to kill someone. However, when your own life is on the line, you have to defend it. We can't expect people to sacrifice themselves.

The question then is, what if somebody is not capable of making rational choices at all?

Then they're probably a vegetable or need to stay in a padded room until they die.


I will also remind you that we know nothing of this woman's mental status. She could be completely rational, but a horrible person.