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[Flying Dice]

That would have been the reasonable alternative. Can't have your unambiguously evil industrialist stereotypes doing anything that isn't needlessly violent, otherwise why bother? It's a lot of work lifting those anvils up over the audience.

[SalmonGod]

The thing that gets me about this conversation is... yes... the evil industrialist is quite the stereotype, and there is understandably a negative reaction to stories that are told excessively through stereotype... but this is one stereotype that the reality of modern history is fucking drenched with... so many stories hammer people over the head with this stereotype because the audience needs to understand that this is how we actually behave.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

They are kind of a long way from Earth, unforeseen equipment gaps can't be filled.

... they were able to call for folks like Jake and had the time and tech to vat-grow the avatars themselves, but couldn't fit in or cook up a couple canisters of sleep gas, just in case? When they were already doing the avatar thing itself for ambassadorial purposes with a known hostile group? That's kinda' exactly what I was talking about with the whole "Incompetent Villain" thing, man.

The Avatar program was started on and shipped from Earth to Pandora. And they did have CS gas or something like it, which I will remind you Quartich attempts to use to drive the space elves off Hometree. That didn't work, so it was napalm time.

When dealing with space travel, everything is at a premium. Every pound of mass you add to the craft reduces its ability to accelerate, which would be a problem even with FTL.

[Frumple]

I... sorta', SG. Thing is, I can't see it in Avatar's case. An actual corp of the stripe we've got nowadays would have the entire Na'Vi hooked on psychoactive substances and being used as miners and/or slaves and/or whores without even considering jacking off however much money the Avatar program spat through, and they'd have done it with a spotless public record. Or just found a sufficiently shiny trinket, introduced (hell, possibly unintentionally) a plague only they could fix (gimme th'rocks and your culture doesn't die), or any dozen of other things. I didn't get an "Evil Industrialist" vibe, I got an "Idiots" vibe. Which, I mean, the latter fits with a group actually seriously calling something flipping Unobtanium.

And point, MSH. I don't even remember them attempting a non-pryo chemical assault -- but again, it just... snaps part of my suspension of disbelief. They're telling me that they can (apparently flawlessly) clone the buggers but not make functioning knockout gas for 'em, and my hindbrain goes, "Bullshit."

It's probably just some weird personal hang-up, t'be honest. What triggers that sort of reaction is oddly inconsistent (I mean hell, I read lots of fanfiction that commits far worse world-building sins, so I'unno.). Space-elf Avatar just rubbed me in a lot of wrong ways. But, being fair, it was hella' pretty; total appreciation for the aesthetic aspect. Just not so much the literary.

[kaijyuu]

I do think we can agree that green aesops are an anvil that needs to be dropped until people finally fucking get it.

[SalmonGod]

I... sorta', SG. Thing is, I can't see it in Avatar's case. An actual corp of the stripe we've got nowadays would have the entire Na'Vi hooked on psychoactive substances and being used as miners and/or slaves and/or whores without even considering jacking off however much money the Avatar program spat through, and they'd have done it with a spotless public record. Or just found a sufficiently shiny trinket, introduced (hell, possibly unintentionally) a plague only they could fix (gimme th'rocks and your culture doesn't die), or any dozen of other things. I didn't get an "Evil Industrialist" vibe, I got an "Idiots" vibe. Which, I mean, the latter fits with a group actually seriously calling something flipping Unobtanium.

I can definitely agree with this.  It's frustrating when conflict in a story hinges too much on stupidity, but this is a deeply pervasive problem in mainstream media.  Hollywood doesn't seem to have many writers who know how to motivate a conflict without someone (or both sides) holding a gigantic idiot ball.

[penguinofhonor]

I am so potentially pissed off right now. My friends may have ditched me. I'm not actually sure whether they did, though, so I don't know if I should be full-on mad or not.

[kaijyuu]

Well do your friends have reason to? I wouldn't assume the worst of them.

[nenjin]

LoL.

And really just MOBA's in general. They're just not my kind of game I guess. You're either farming minions, running for your life or ganking your ass off, those are the only real modes in the game. Fall behind, especially at the beginning, and you have to work really hard to even stay remotely relevant through out the match. The patience and strategic dickery required just isn't fun for me in the end, and it's beyond rage inducing when someone's like "Yeah you take top" and you get double-teamed beyond your ability to deal with, and end up having to run and hide.

[kaijyuu]

I've never, ever understood the appeal of MOBAs. Hated Dota back in the warcraft 3 days.

It's mostly that winners snowball. They get stronger, so win more, so they get stronger, etc. The match is decided long before it actually ends, barring (from what I've heard) matches between skilled enough players that can keep the teams balanced for a significant amount of time before something tips it one way or the other. But most of the time, the balance is tipped early and you've won or lost right there.

[SalmonGod]

It's really a shame because they could be insanely fun.  My primary complaints:

1.  You can't leave when the game starts pissing you off.  You're forced to play out 30+ min losing matches of hair-ripping frustration on a regular basis.  Any other type of game, you just leave when it starts getting to you.

2.  Snowballing rpg mechanics, which I really find to be fucking unforgivably horrible game design for obvious reasons.

3.  They're balanced so that combat encounters play out in split seconds.  Not only is this not satisfying, but makes for horrible inaccessibility to newcomers.  Nuke and assassin-type characters are just stupid.  You should never die in a game without having any opportunity to respond to the threat.

All of these are things that could easily be changed.  Of course these games also tend to have the worst possible communities whose whining would be heard throughout the galaxy if my advice were taken.   "Oh no!  They're appealing to casuals!"

[Frumple]

I kinda' enjoy even your watered down shitty AoS-style maps (Because they're still Starcraft/Warcraft 3 custom maps until they start doing something actually interesting) that have become popular, but yeah, they've basically taken everything that's awesome about the iconic Aeon of Strife style and made it, just... sports like, is the best way I can put it. Plays and specific mechanical bitsies and specialized knowledge and blah and blah and blah; hyperfocused small-scale tactical application of a game style whose potential is best expressed in large-scale tactical scenarios with a heavy strategy element; you're supposed to be heroes and war leaders altering the tides of battle with your very stride, not sportsmen dueling each other on a playing field, of all things.

... I've ranted on AoS maps a few times before, actually. Eh. These DotA inspired ones continue to underwhelm. One day, though... one day. Someone, somewhere, will say to hell with this DotA suckling bullshit and actually do it right and proper. It starts by multiplying most things (number of minions, size of the map, meaningful and major objectives, etc., etc.) by something like ten, or to the power of ten. I can wait, I guess.

[penguinofhonor]

Well do your friends have reason to? I wouldn't assume the worst of them.

Whether or not they had a reason to, they all ended up hanging out without me. Apparently it was "kind of spontaneous" so they didn't really invite people, though everyone but me still ended up there.

[10ebbor10]

I... sorta', SG. Thing is, I can't see it in Avatar's case. An actual corp of the stripe we've got nowadays would have the entire Na'Vi hooked on psychoactive substances and being used as miners and/or slaves and/or whores without even considering jacking off however much money the Avatar program spat through, and they'd have done it with a spotless public record. Or just found a sufficiently shiny trinket, introduced (hell, possibly unintentionally) a plague only they could fix (gimme th'rocks and your culture doesn't die), or any dozen of other things. I didn't get an "Evil Industrialist" vibe, I got an "Idiots" vibe. Which, I mean, the latter fits with a group actually seriously calling something flipping Unobtanium.

I can definitely agree with this.  It's frustrating when conflict in a story hinges too much on stupidity, but this is a deeply pervasive problem in mainstream media.  Hollywood doesn't seem to have many writers who know how to motivate a conflict without someone (or both sides) holding a gigantic idiot ball.

According to background information, that was the original plan, and the very reason for the Avatar project.

[Euld]

Well do your friends have reason to? I wouldn't assume the worst of them.

Whether or not they had a reason to, they all ended up hanging out without me. Apparently it was "kind of spontaneous" so they didn't really invite people, though everyone but me still ended up there.

I was in your position a while back, I suspect.  I hung out with a group of friends and we all had a blast... for a while.  After a year, they started getting together without me, and invited me less often.  I had to put a lot of effort into meeting up with them, and they put a lot less effort into meeting up.   I think the last straw was when they all went to a theme park across the state without me.  We all went there the year before, and it was a big deal and a lot of fun.  The fact nobody bothered to let me know... yeah that made it pretty clear they didn't want me around anymore.

That pretty much tore my heart out for a while <_<;;  This group made me feel special, then tossed me aside once they realized the shy and anti-social kid was (SURPRISE!) social awkward and a bit eccentric and weird.  I'm with a new group at my new college... and I dunno if they're gonna do the same to me someday.