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[MetalSlimeHunt]

You want to take the risk of stepping into a hospital, be my guest. But I'm not following you unless I am clearly dying.

I've stepped into hospitals multiple times with no bills, happy to be healthy or treated. This just sounds so horrifically wrong, a part of me dies inside to realize it is

It is.....?

[Reudh]

is it just me, or does Britain's healthcare seem to be more moral than quite a few others?

Australia's healthcare's pretty good as long as you're a citizen. We do have to pay for ambulance rides, though there is cover for that, but Medicare covers between 50% and 75% of the cost of going to the Doctor's.

[Loud Whispers]

I just hate the term free given the world we live in. Nothing we make or provide as a species is free, and yet culturally we throw that word around a lot to make something more enticing, disguising what goes on underneath.

Healthcare is not supposed to ever be something that's marketed. Ever. Free = without cost. True, it has cost, but not so nearly as grave on those who actually need it.
Hence, free. There is nothing to be disguised, when the alternative is to keep a system where people fear to step within hospitals unless they believe themselves to be dying. For numerous ailments, this can be the difference between life, severe disabilities and death. I cannot think of any moral and sane person who would choose to let anyone who couldn't afford medical bills to die, let alone suffer.

You want to take the risk of stepping into a hospital, be my guest. But I'm not following you unless I am clearly dying.

I've stepped into hospitals multiple times with no bills, happy to be healthy or treated. This just sounds so horrifically wrong, a part of me dies inside to realize it is

It is.....?

The English language was not sufficient enough to describe

[Aklyon]

Say it in a launguage sufficient to describe it then, and we can see how badly google translate can mangle it.

[GlyphGryph]

I just hate the term free given the world we live in. Nothing we make or provide as a species is free, and yet culturally we throw that word around a lot to make something more enticing, disguising what goes on underneath.

But to say that they can get health treatment and healthcare for free in a "free healthcare" system is exactly true. They may (or may not) pay to create the system itself, which assuredly isn't free for society (but may also be free to that person), but the actual health care is quite literally free.

Hell, I would even love to live in one of the places in the US where you can pay for a free healthcare plan. They sound amazing. I don't even need the government to do that for me. But I am just so sick of these perverse incentives, bullshit charges, and con-man-run medical systems.

It's not a "disguise" - it is literally the only worthwhile definition and use of the word, and there's no situation where it's more appropriate. "Someone or something has set up a situation where you can gain something at no additional cost to yourself" = "that thing is free"

[nenjin]

It's not a "disguise" - it is literally the only worthwhile definition and use of the word, and there's no situation where it's more appropriate. "Someone or something has set up a situation where you can gain something at no additional cost to yourself" = "that thing is free"

But it's not free. Getting a "free" order of fries with your combo meal overlooks the fact that the COST of the fries was something you're already being charged for. Wifi isn't "Free", someone paid for the hardware, someone pays the ISP, someone pays a guy to flip the switch on it when he comes in during the morning. A sandwich isn't free because someone paid for the ingredients and made the time to make it.

The whole concept of "well it doesn't cost ME anything" is part and parcel of why we're fucking up our own world. Because it allows us to avoid responsibility for the act of consumption, and rewards our short-sightedness. We pass on the debt of things to someone else, or mistakenly think we're getting something at a better value than we really are.

[Loud Whispers]

I think the words you were looking for can only be found in the mind of a paranoid schizophrenic that has gazed into the eye of cthulhu after being sacrificed to armok.

A miasma of disgust, absolute loathing, ROTTEN, unfathomable chasms of rage, tempests of anger, torrents of nausea, swirling emotive secretions of the vilest and most wicked nature, sour bile physically transcended into pure hate, endless cascades of vomit like putrid and stark  dislike, the most sincere and definite objection, ground pus filled abscesses seething with repugnance, revulsion blooming like the rotten flesh of a Refflesia, total and utterly without a doubt abhorrence and a complete sense of injustice, so much so that the perpetrators should be forfeit of being called human.

[Tellemurius]

I think the words you were looking for can only be found in the mind of a paranoid schizophrenic that has gazed into the eye of cthulhu after being sacrificed to armok.

A miasma of disgust, absolute loathing, ROTTEN, unfathomable chasms of rage, tempests of anger, torrents of nausea, swirling emotive secretions of the vilest and most wicked nature, sour bile physically transcended into pure hate, endless cascades of vomit like putrid and stark  dislike, the most sincere and definite objection, ground pus filled abscesses seething with repugnance, revulsion blooming like the rotten flesh of a Refflesia, total and utterly without a doubt abhorrence and a complete sense of injustice, so much so that the perpetrators should be forfeit of being called human.

argh the text hurts my eyes more than the words.

[kaijyuu]

How about "I'd like a system of healthcare where my personal expense is consistent, my healthcare providers have no incentive to either not treat me or shove unnecessary treatments down my throat, and the unfortunate only have to worry about their health issues and not the piling bills from vultures ostensibly helping them."

Not as concise as "free" but hey.

[GlyphGryph]

But it's not free. Getting a "free" order of fries with your combo meal overlooks the fact that the COST of the fries was something you're already being charged for. Wifi isn't "Free", someone paid for the hardware, someone pays the ISP, someone pays a guy to flip the switch on it when he comes in during the morning. A sandwich isn't free because someone paid for the ingredients and made the time to make it.

Well it's good that all those are completely irrelevant to the use we were talking about then?

But seriously, you seem be indicating that there is in fact no such thing as free, that the word is useless. Usually this indicates you are using the word wrong, otherwise it would be a word.

The whole concept of "well it doesn't cost ME anything" is part and parcel of why we're fucking up our own world.

Except that's bloody well irrelevant to all of the examples I used, which are much closer to the actual topic of healthcare than the ones you use.

We pass on the debt of things to someone else, or mistakenly think we're getting something at a better value than we really are.

Or maybe, just maybe, we're correctly aligning our incentives by purchasing the correct items so that the results we want are the most likely outcome?

Seriously, you're adding all this absolutely crazy baggage to the term. It's kind of weird.

[Tellemurius]

Well its basic economics, everything has a cost depending on the need.

[nenjin]

But seriously, you seem be indicating that there is in fact no such thing as free, that the word is useless. Usually this indicates you are using the word wrong, otherwise it would be a word.

The word isn't useless. But it's been abused and mishandled by our whole society, into and including the healthcare debate and this very thread.

Except that's bloody well irrelevant to all of the examples I used, which are much closer to the actual topic of healthcare than the ones you use.

Healthcare is even more costly on all fronts than the examples I used. Do I really need to detail the massive amount of cash and resources that go into providing "free" healthcare? I don't think I do. Do you?

Or maybe, just maybe, we're correctly aligning our incentives by purchasing the correct items so that the results we want are the most likely outcome?

It's a possibility, sure. More of a happy coincidence to me though. I think the chances are more likely that most people would get what they needed/wanted, regardless of additional incentives. And many examples of "free" are actually examples of gross waste and deception. Even digital things have a cost associated with them, and they're the closest example we have of free replication.

Seriously, you're adding all this absolutely crazy baggage to the term. It's kind of weird.

Or:

Well its basic economics, everything has a cost depending on the need.

Maybe I and every other 101 economist just have "crazy baggage."

[Loud Whispers]

But seriously, you seem be indicating that there is in fact no such thing as free, that the word is useless. Usually this indicates you are using the word wrong, otherwise it would be a word.

The word isn't useless. But it's been abused and mishandled by our whole society, into and including the healthcare debate and this very thread.

You know what though, it's sidestepping the entire issue. You seem to be entirely focused on the cost and not on the actual freaking health of human beings. If you want to, sure abuse a word - but it's a whole lot better than abusing people.

Healthcare is even more costly on all fronts than the examples I used. Do I really need to detail the massive amount of cash and resources that go into providing "free" healthcare? I don't think I do. Do you?

Wait, you're really arguing costs when the US health system is pretty much on the top of the pyramid when it comes to healthcare spending, and they have this to show for it?

I think the chances are more likely that most people would get what they needed/wanted, regardless of additional incentives.

*Suicide watch*
*Additional examinations just for the hell of it*

And many examples of "free" are actually examples of gross waste and deception.

Above

Maybe I and every other 101 economist just have "crazy baggage."

All my wat. Living person > money

[kaijyuu]

Silly Loud Whispers, don't you know human life has a monetary value?

[nenjin]

You seem to think I'm arguing against healthcare. I'm not. It's a good thing that we're all shouldering a burden so everyone can enjoy access to healthcare. Human life > money.

At the same time, respect what it costs society and don't leap to embrace free things, because most material things as presented as free are anything but, and are called free specifically to disguise the costs. In fact, I'll go as far to say that nothing, absolutely nothing is without cost, even emotion, kindness, cellular life and atoms.