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[Heliman]

But if you already knew it was predestined (but not where you were going) then surely it wouldn't matter what you did regardless of where you'd end up.  Heck, if you're predestined to go to hell that's all the more reason to enjoy your time on earth as much as possible.

The thing about destiny is that you can't fight it if you don't know what it is. Just because it's set out on a table somewhere else doesn't mean shit if you're not looking at the table. It is very close to a great example of Schrodinger's Cat. Until you know your own fate, you are destined for both heaven and hell at the same time.

[nenjin]

Parts of Christian thinking have started to reinforce the beliefs that people in power use to abuse us. Current thinking by the mega churches is that God rewards those he likes with wealth. If you're wealthy, it's because god likes you and what you're doing. So whatever you're doing to make money, keep doing it, because it both pleases God and is a sign of his favor.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that has zero to do with body of Christian belief, and has been hi-jacked by the wealthy so they can always fall back on religion when the real world starts getting pissed about what they're doing to get it.

And then there's the whole belief that we're just working toward the Apocalypse with every minute, so in some sense they've got plenty of motivation to "be as Christian as possible" right up until the last minute.

It's why self-described Christian Businessmen scare me. It's why the Mormon Church scares me. The marriage of global finance and religion is almost as scary as the marriage of religion and government.

[Heliman]

The whole wealth=god's favor thing is crazy on the face of it. Hitler was wealthy and powerful while he was alive, does that mean that god liked him killing off all the jews? What happens when two kings go to war with eachother, does god favor both sides? Does god just plain favor war in general? Why wasn't Jesus loaded?

[Bauglir]

Spoiler: so much blasphemy (click to show/hide)

Clearly, Hitler's loss in the War was due to his killing of the formerly Chosen People (whom God is still a bit protective of out of habit, apparently? Yeah this is insane troll logic and I'm not even one sentence in yet). The richest king is favored by God, unless the poorer wins, in which case the poorer king's superior virtue and discipline was the deciding factor. Clearly, God does, in fact, favor war as a means of bringing out national strength and the pride of a people to encourage self-sufficiency and growth. Jesus wasn't loaded because he was clearly a false prophet, hence his ultimately just and righteous crucifixion.

[Heliman]

Bauglir I am fucking loving your new religion, are you taking converts?

[Bauglir]

Yes. For just $11.95, I'll send you a copy of our holy book, the One True History of Mighty Atheismo. Don't forget the $79.95 (shipping and handling). For an additional $5.99, I can also sign you up for a subscription to our newsletter, "Fuck the Other Guy".

[Heliman]

God doesn't favor me enough to know about your religion.

[nenjin]

See, I knew it. The person behind Bauglir is really Pat Robertson!

[Bauglir]

See, I knew it. The person behind Bauglir is really Pat Robertson!

How insulting. You think you can compare me to that amateur and get away with it? I will end you

Prepare to feel the wrath of my orbital money cannon!

[nenjin]

Damn, the instant you said that I felt the compulsion to go illustrate the Orbital Money Canon. It's his will!!!11111.

[Dsarker]

Mind if I explain what they might have meant when they say they do good deeds 'so they will get to heaven'? I'm thinking they either: mistranslated their answer or misunderstood the reason you're doing good deeds.

You go to heaven if you lead a moral life and have no mortal sin. But you lead a moral life and have no mortal sin BECAUSE you love God, and these are signs you love God. As you love God, you desire heaven. In a roundabout way, you do good deeds to go to heaven.

I would point out that predestination is a relatively new idea of salvation. I've not looked at it much, so I can't speak much about it.

[Leafsnail]

You go to heaven if you lead a moral life and have no mortal sin. But you lead a moral life and have no mortal sin BECAUSE you love God, and these are signs you love God. As you love God, you desire heaven. In a roundabout way, you do good deeds to go to heaven.

What if you lead a moral life with no mortal sin but don't believe in God?

[Darvi]

Then you end up in the first circle of hell.

[nenjin]

In its current form, predestination is only a few hundred years old.

Over the span of time, however, just about everyone has claimed a divine mandate for what they do, and its one of the philosophical/religious/political tenets that can be found in the East and the West. It's not really the claim that has changed, but the context in which its used.

What if you lead a moral life with no mortal sin but don't believe in God?

Not believing in God is a mortal sin. Consider the context in which that belief first formed. When your King was one step below God, acquiescence to God meant acquiescence to your liege. When your King is divinely appointed, if you don't recognize the system in which their authority is vested, you don't recognize their authority. The idea of secular authority is actually quite young itself.

[Heliman]

Then you end up in the first circle of hell.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but Limbo was idealized by Dante. If you're christian, then his version of infierno is nothing but a fanfic.