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Author Topic: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Trust-o-nomics Edition  (Read 3707930 times)

Mindmaker

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3720 on: May 24, 2011, 01:37:48 pm »

Most of them are valid.
Some are arguable and some could be reversed to make it a female privilege/male disadvantage.

As for me I often see being male as a burden, but that's a different story...
Too bad we will never be able to see the world trough the other sides eyes...
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Nadaka

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3721 on: May 24, 2011, 02:14:14 pm »

I agree with almost all of the list of male privileges as general expectations.

9: my masculinity will be questioned if I never have children.

But I am failing to see how any of that relates to your objection to my previous post. What does that meant?

...
By listing a set of normal innocent behaviors common to pretty much all humans to some extent (in addition to a few bad or somewhat questionable behaviors), she is implicitly blaming all humans including the victims. Rubbing it in their face, saying "Guess what? It really is your fault." She is victimizing them again, and doing it intentionally.

You need to check your privilege, friendo.  You really, really need to.
...
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Darvi

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3722 on: May 24, 2011, 02:15:47 pm »

9: my masculinity will be questioned if I never have children.
Good thing I don't give a rat's arse about masculinity then.
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The Merchant Of Menace

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3723 on: May 24, 2011, 02:21:18 pm »

Aha, thank you.

Personeally, I'd say 1 is untrue. Most places are so obsessed with keeping the diversity ratio good that a white male is one of the least likely people to be employed, even if he's the most skilled applicant.
of course, that may be complete bollocks
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Taricus

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3724 on: May 24, 2011, 02:24:42 pm »

I do think that 27 is disputable, though I don't exactly know how long a someone is expected to groom for...
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Criptfeind

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3725 on: May 24, 2011, 02:28:35 pm »

I sorta disagree with a lot of that, but what ever.
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Bauglir

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3726 on: May 24, 2011, 02:52:38 pm »

Aha, thank you.

Personeally, I'd say 1 is untrue. Most places are so obsessed with keeping the diversity ratio good that a white male is one of the least likely people to be employed, even if he's the most skilled applicant.
of course, that may be complete bollocks
My understanding on that one is that it may be the case in entry-level menial labor or service positions (sales clerk, fast food, cleaning, etc), but in that case a non-white male probably has a better chance. At any rate, it seems that in most jobs that are traditionally considered "careers" (regardless of the validity of that tradition), white males are the likeliest to get hired and/or promoted.
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“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
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At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

RedKing

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3727 on: May 24, 2011, 02:55:04 pm »

Wow...the "male" list is so full of stereotype fail that it almost makes me want to write a ragey article about how feminists are still raging at stereotypes of men from 20 years ago. Almost.

Quote
38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.
39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.
40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

In my case: Wrong, wrong and wrong. I was stay-at-home dad for the first two and a half years of my daugher's life, while juggling grad school and a big chunk of daily domestic duties (who's gonna do the laundry, dishes, vacuum, etc--the person in the house most of the day or the person who's only there long enough to eat, watch some TV and go to sleep?)

Even now that we're both working, the split is pretty even. And I'm not that much of an anomaly. I have a lot of married friends. it's pretty close to equal in their households too. Maybe it's because we all have a higher than normal level of education, maybe it's the area we live in, I dunno...but to say that the vast majority of guys are big, fat douchebags that want their women barefoot & pregnant and in the kitchen makin' a sammich frankly pisses me off.


Quote
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

Tell that to John Bobbit.

Moreover, I'm having trouble parsing this one. Does that mean that gay couples beat the hell out of each other regularly?


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Leafsnail

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3728 on: May 24, 2011, 03:25:37 pm »

As for me I often see being male as a burden, but that's a different story...
Too bad we will never be able to see the world trough the other sides eyes...
Well, some people do.  I guess they're the people to ask...?

I think the thing about role models is quite important.  If I ever have a daughter I'll try and steer her away from princesses as much as possible and towards... hm... witches.  Witches get things done.
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lemon10

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3729 on: May 24, 2011, 03:27:32 pm »

Quote
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

Tell that to John Bobbit.

Moreover, I'm having trouble parsing this one. Does that mean that gay couples beat the hell out of each other regularly?
No, lets say that out of 100 hetersexual relationships, 15 of them have physical abuse. Odds are that in all/almost all of them the men are beating the women.
In 100 (male) homosexual relationships, lets say that 10 of them have physical abuse. In all of them the men are beating other men.
Even if the abuse level is lower overall, the males in a homosexual relationship are far more likely to get beaten then the men in a heterosexual relationship.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 03:31:31 pm by lemon10 »
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Because the solution to not being able to control your dakka is MOAR DAKKA.

That's it. We've finally crossed over and become the nation of Da Orky Boyz.

Darvi

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3730 on: May 24, 2011, 03:27:35 pm »

... what about Kumatora?
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Bohandas

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3731 on: May 24, 2011, 03:41:43 pm »

Not all men automatically enjoy male privileges, either.

Can you clarify/expound/whatever?  I'm still quite sick, and am having trouble understanding you.

Ok, in business ofr example, let's look at the list of the world's billionaires. The full list is 1,210 names long, and out of the top twenty listed in the linked site, only two are female, that 18 to 2 ratio is your example of male privilege. However, since the world has a population of upwards of 6.5 billion people, only about one out of every three million men will make that list, however skewed it may be.
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lemon10

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3732 on: May 24, 2011, 03:43:55 pm »

Not all men automatically enjoy male privileges, either.

Can you clarify/expound/whatever?  I'm still quite sick, and am having trouble understanding you.

Ok, in business ofr example, let's look at the list of the world's billionaires. The full list is 1,210 names long, and out of the top twenty listed in the linked site, only two are female, that 18 to 2 ratio is your example of male privilege. However, since the world has a population of upwards of 6.5 billion people, only about one out of every three million men will make that list, however skewed it may be.
Yeah, you won't ever be a billionaire, but you will still make a significant amount more then a women for the same job (.76:1 ratio).
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And with a mighty leap, the evil Conservative flies through the window, escaping our heroes once again!
Because the solution to not being able to control your dakka is MOAR DAKKA.

That's it. We've finally crossed over and become the nation of Da Orky Boyz.

RedKing

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3733 on: May 24, 2011, 03:59:26 pm »

Quote
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

Tell that to John Bobbit.

Moreover, I'm having trouble parsing this one. Does that mean that gay couples beat the hell out of each other regularly?
No, lets say that out of 100 hetersexual relationships, 15 of them have physical abuse. Odds are that in all/almost all of them the men are beating the women.
In 100 (male) homosexual relationships, lets say that 10 of them have physical abuse. In all of them the men are beating other men.
Even if the abuse level is lower overall, the males in a homosexual relationship are far more likely to get beaten then the men in a heterosexual relationship.

That's some very mushy statistics. You could frame the statement as "If I am homosexual, it’s highly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover." and it would still be empirically true, depending on your threshhold for "highly unlikely". To me, the fact that they make that distinction, rather than just saying "If I'm a man, it's unlikely..." indicates that the author assumes men are inherently violent and women aren't. I've never shoved, punched or bitten a woman. I have been shoved, punched and even bitten by women with whom I was in a relationship at the time (and not in a good way). Some of the nastiest physical fights I've ever seen have been between women. To make the assumption that women are passive and incapable of physical hostility towards their mate is, to me, anti-feminist.

I believe that true equality means recognizing that women and men are equally capable of violence, of exploitation, of all the negatives *and* positives to being a human being. We may have power structures in place which tend to inhibit some characteristics based on gender and aggravate other characteristics. But when an argument goes beyond the structure to argue that men and women are inherently more or less capable of something based on gender, that's when I call bullshit.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Things that made you RRAAAAAGGGGEEEE today thread.
« Reply #3734 on: May 24, 2011, 04:50:52 pm »

I disagree with most of the items on that list from about #28 onward, based purely on personal experience, granted, not research.  I agree with most of the items before that point.

I also think the likelihood and direction of abuse depends on environment & culture.  Once again based on just personal experience, low-income, conservative, and under-educated cultures seem to have a lot more abuse towards women, and this abuse usually involves physical violence.  Middle-class, educated, and liberal cultures seem to have more abuse towards men, and this abuse is usually mostly emotional.

The thing that really pisses me off is the disparity in recognition and resources for coping with the former vs the latter.  A women in an abusive relationship with children has tons of resources available to escape that situation with child custody, even if there may be some stigma attached.  A man in an abusive relationship with children very likely has no options that include child custody, and there is a lot more social stigma involved in trying.

My experience: 

I've lived in very poor, conservative areas most of my life, while most of my friends, family, and acquaintances are highly educated and at least come from middle class families. 

I have seen a lot of patriarchal abuse in my neighborhoods.  I have seen a couple cases of unfaithful/irresponsible husbands among people I actually know, and the women in those cases have since moved on to much better lives with support from community and maintained full custody of their children to the point where the kids have almost no contact with their fathers (deservedly).  I know a few women who come from very abusive backgrounds and in each case there were other women actively complicit and willingly engaged in that abuse, and none of them have actually been subject to abuse in 20+ years.

I have known one male victim of gang rape perpetrated by females.  I have known several men subject to emotional abuse by women, including my dad and myself (and no, not by the same people).  My grandmother was indirectly responsible for the death of my grandfather via emotional abuse.  My wife and I went to great lengths only a year ago to rescue her male best friend from an extremely toxic relationship, where he ended up giving up nearly everything he owned in order to escape.  He's just lucky there were no children involved.

So forgive me for being very critical on this subject.  I'm not anti-feminist.  I know there is a lot of patriarchy still ingrained in our social structure.  At the same time, I do not believe things to be as one-sided as they are typically portrayed.
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We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.
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