Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Vector]

From what I understood of the article, if you find women attractive in any way, then you only see them as objects, and you are supporting rape culture, and you are an evil man.

Then I would reread it, because that isn't what it said.

[Mindmaker]

But saying that nearly a 100% are supporting it?
That's just demonizing men...

[Vector]

But saying that nearly a 100% are supporting it?
That's just demonizing men...

Well, I think the point is to say that it's very, very hard to find someone who doesn't play into this mess.

For example, I definitely fall in it.  I enjoy loads and loads of stories that contain violence against women, and which aren't very feminist at all.  The point of the list is to remind you to check your privilege, not to condemn yourself just because you're adding to the problem.

Like...

"Here's a problem, and here's some of the ways in which you might be part of the problem.  Reconsider what you want to do."

In general, most feminist safe spaces don't have an expectation of perfection; they have an expectation of learning how to break apart these problems, not just in society but in oneself.

I'll also add that for those who are complaining about the tone of this woman, you might want to look up the Feminism 101 articles on Shakesville and see how you feel about her writing afterwards.

[scriver]

Her mistake is, just like Leafsnail kinda said above, not declaring what she means by "support" enough. Most people are just going to assume that it means directly approving of rape (I did this myself at first), but what she means is simply that it (directly or indirectly) reinforce or contribute to the so called "rape culture", or outright apologise for it, regardless of how you personally think about rape.

That said, she's making some major leaps of logic, bundling together things and thoughts that aren't inherently related, and generally simplifying a complicated issue into an "us and them" scenario.

And the quote:

I do have some days where I hate men; it’s easy to do when physical and psychological torture of women is one of the most popular and highest-grossing forms of entertainment among men.

-more or less speaks for itself about how much she's lost contact with the real world.

[Vector]

Yes, I agree that she could have done a better job of her definitions.

On the other hand, I suspect that a lot of this is written as in "math culture," in which one is supposed to think and it is considered rude to just respond without reading very, very carefully.  "I don't need to explain to you and waste my time doing that" is a strong attitude that prevails in femininism, because in general the resources are out there, should one take the effort to lift a finger.

No matter how much simplifying she is doing, I would also argue that she's clarifying an issue that would not otherwise be discussed in general, and if you check out her comments she's generally a hell of a lot nicer than she needs to be.

Also, I suspect that quotation is one of those things that doesn't make sense because she doesn't explain what she's referring to.  It might make sense with a definite noun attached, but as-is, she just sounds like she's confused.

[Mindmaker]

Sure, but... to what end?

Ok, I'm falling in this category. So what?
I do consider myself a 'good' person, who's trying to do the 'right' things.
So basically I only feel slightly hurt, but won't act on it in any way.

Other people will get angry and defensive about this.
They won't change their attitude, label her as another 'stupid feminist' and go on with their lives.

So like she said (in one of the comments), it's aimed at other feminists.
The objective still stays unclear to me.
Raise awareness? A sort of rallying cry?

How else are you supposed to handle such issues, you ask?
If I knew how to handle this rotten world, I wouldn't be in the situation I'm currently in.
All I can say is, that such an approach will not solve anything. It probably wasn't even intended as such...

Sick and tired again. Just waiting for my train to arrive so I can engage in my new found otaku-lifestyle. I just have to survive a few more months that way...

[Akura]

Goddamnit, back is hurting more than it was few days ago.

[Leafsnail]

All I can say is, that such an approach will not solve anything. It probably wasn't even intended as such...

...Is us discussing it here (or indeed, doing anything here) going to "solve anything", or are we just discussing it out of personal interest?

[Bauglir]

Eh, I suppose that while I support what seems to be the point of the article (which seems to be, "Think about what you're doing, because you don't just have to rape somebody to participate in the culture that makes rape seem acceptable to the people that do"), my main problem is that a lot of things that do often contribute, don't necessarily contribute. For instance, I think it's an unfair blanket statement to include, "... or proceeds in discussions as if the interests of the women are the same as the interests of the men." That seems to indicate that a person supports rape by suggesting that he and his friends should go see a movie after 6:00 to ensure that they are all done with work (the assumption here being that everyone is interested in seeing a movie, but cannot go see it when they're supposed to be working, and that all people present have similar work schedules). It may be that it's supposed to be more equivalent to, "the interests of men and women", but I think that in this case the use of articles changes the meaning... significantly. That's the only item I can think of, though, where I think the statement was simply too broad. There are a number of others where the behavior is overwhelmingly likely to be contributing, but needn't be in principle (though that might be a basic assumption that we're already supposed to know).

The other thing is that last point, "He defends these actions by saying that some women also engage in them." It's completely true, and it's also why the article shouldn't be written in such a way as to imply that the items on the list apply only to men, because it seems to me that it's just as important for women to consider them (it may be that it's a stylistic choice in feminist writing and anybody acquainted with the subject knows that it's not intended to apply only to men, but that really isn't helping the popular mischaracterization of it as the whole feminazi thing). The reason I bring it up is because that last point seems particularly likely to be misinterpreted as saying that women are immune to criticism.

[iceball3]

I'm sure tAA sums this up quite well.

[Benevolence]

You know, I listened to part of the video, and even if I haven't thought enough about the article itself to decide what I think yet, the video seriously bugs me because I don't think he's even trying to see what the point is. He seems to be taking everything completely at face value just so he can mock it.

That is not remotely constructive and it gets in the way of actually addressing the underlying problem.

[Vector]

Will reply in a couple days when I'm not running a ridiculous fever.  But keep discussing!  I'm enjoying reading it, and you sound thoughtful =)

[Mindmaker]

All I can say is, that such an approach will not solve anything. It probably wasn't even intended as such...

...Is us discussing it here (or indeed, doing anything here) going to "solve anything", or are we just discussing it out of personal interest?

If you are going to make a point, then make it.
I'm not here to unravel your slick comments and figure out which of the several possible meanings you tried to express...

[Leafsnail]

You don't have to think that writing something will solve anything in order to write it.

[Mindmaker]

Thanks for the clarification.