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[SalmonGod]

If you let a girl know you are romantically interested in her and still act like a gentleman before and after you get shot down, you are a nice guy who finished last and I feel bad for you. If you are some creeper with a crush who uses politeness as a facade and expect her to 'reward' your behavior or whatever, you are scummy and I feel no sympathy for your crushing loneliness.

Thanks.  This is what I agree with.  The thing that got me here, is that I know some examples of the former (and may have ended up one of those types of guys myself had my personal life not ended up totally bizarre in other ways), and I have seen plenty of evidence that guys who act like assholes are generally more attractive to the majority of women somehow.  I also think there are some cultural factors that are typically ignored - for instance "nice guys" are often the types of people who have had lots of social problems unrelated to romance (bullying, for instance), which has a large effect on one's social behaviors and self esteem and makes placing the blame on them for being cowardly and other such notions more difficult for me to swallow.

[Stone Wera]

Steppe bandits in Mount & Blade. I'm starting out, building a party, and suddenly I get jumped by ten of the bastards while my five untrained and under equipped tribesmen get slaughtered. They take me prisoner and all that beef I had been saving for the market goes bad. And to top it all off they take my horse, too.

[IHateOutside]

Foolish bandits made me rage today. They could have taken and sold that meat for profit, dammit! 

[Akura]

Some mods create massive numbers of looter/raider parties containing 50+ high-level troops that surround you right at the start. Watch out for those.

[MaximumZero]

The DLP Lamp died in my TV, and now my wife is talking about selling the tv.  Graaar. We're going from a 50" to a 27" as it is. It's so-ho-ho small...

[Vector]

Thanks.  This is what I agree with.  The thing that got me here, is that I know some examples of the former (and may have ended up one of those types of guys myself had my personal life not ended up totally bizarre in other ways), and I have seen plenty of evidence that guys who act like assholes are generally more attractive to the majority of women somehow.  I also think there are some cultural factors that are typically ignored - for instance "nice guys" are often the types of people who have had lots of social problems unrelated to romance (bullying, for instance), which has a large effect on one's social behaviors and self esteem and makes placing the blame on them for being cowardly and other such notions more difficult for me to swallow.

I don't like "nice guys" because I am not a nice girl.

That doesn't mean I want to date an asshole.  But I am never going to be a pretty girl with nice hair, clothes, and makeup, who makes sandwiches.  I don't like the veneer of "niceness."  It feels dishonest.  I'm a jerk sometimes.  I want to be called out on it.  I want to be told what to do sometimes.  I don't want some dude who is endlessly patient, because I'm not endlessly patient and I'd rather have the semblance of an equitable relationship.

Compliments on my brains (and nothing else; you can be objectified via intellect, too =/) stopped being sexy a while back, because they're usually part of putting me on a pedestal of Knowledge, just like many other women are put on pedestals of Demureness or Physical Beauty.  I want to be treated like a person, me, rather than a vase.

The stereotypical "nice guy," i.e. the people who self-identify as such, seem to be incapable of that.

I understand about the bullying thing.  I really do.  I got my share.  But all the same, any guy who treats me like a thing does not get the benefit of a bad past to stand on.  Any guy who waits for three years and expects me to have gone for him instead of going with some other dude does not get much sympathy.  I'll be sorry that he wasn't secure enough to ask, but... seriously, what was I supposed to do, wait just in case he wants to ask me?  It's not that nice guys finish last.  It's guys who never try and put the onus on me to magically know what they want, so that they won't have to open themselves up.  I am not an instrument for wish-fulfillment, either.

Those cultural factors should not mean that I ever have to emotionally cripple myself again by putting up with stereotypical "nice guy" bullshit.  I ate it once.  I'm never eating it again.

Meh.  Too many personal experiences here.  I hope you can see past the feelings to what I really mean.

[SalmonGod]

Yeah, that all makes sense to me... kind of. 

It's a hard issue for me to relate to or say much on, since I've never done dating or had a romantic relationship under normal circumstances. 

I definitely know guys who are nice (as in patient, honest, treat everyone fairly, responsible, etc, not 'I-get-close-to-girls-by-being-their-emotional-tools') who get hit with constant rejection, while the more condescending, irresponsible, selfish, dishonest, etc guys seem to be magnetic... it's frustrating just to observe... but second-hand observation is all I have, so I can't really say much other than my general impression, that is it doesn't always seem to be a failing on the guy's part, but a preference that most women do seem to have and has been directly confirmed to me (but not explained) by women on several occassions.  Hell, my own sister got pregnant by a guy who has cheated on her and lied to her about circumstances that led suddenly to his deportation 

[Megaman]

I decided to buy Dead Space 2 on steam, so I download it, and it's done! I attempt to play it, and now during First-Time Set-Up, Mr.Activationmanager always stops, and gives me the standard 'encountered a problem' Windows message. So now I have to wait a few life times so that someone down my bloodline can can play Dead Space 2 when Steam Support decides it cares. And then there will probably be Dead Space 6-Virtual Reality Edition. Bah.

[Max White]

Lack of feedback from people! ARR!

[Solifuge]

Along with Salmon's point, and on topic, a good friend of mine (a crazy-nice guy, even by my standards) just moved in with a reasonable and seemingly nice girl he had recently started a relationship with. Just a few days back, another of my friends (who is a former soldier, and more attractive and charismatic... though generally an insensitive ass) has been getting touchy-feely with the girl, and I guess he just shoehorned his way between them. As of a few days back, they are apparently going out instead now, and my nice friend is feeling completely betrayed. It seems like my other friend doesn't notice why or how upset this has made my nice friend, since he's been inadvertently rubbing it in his face every time we all get together.

I've lost a bit of respect for the second friend, and a decent chunk for the girl too... I don't understand how you can just do that to someone you allegedly care about, without even discussing it first. I'm frustrated, and pretty angry on behalf of the first friend too. It really does seem like a number of girls I know respond more to aggressive irreverent asshats than to the patient considerate types... overwhelmingly so.

[Vector]

And let me ask you this, before we talk about "all girls" like this:

How many men go for the nice girl, the quiet, studious, and kind girl, who doesn't run around showing off her assets, who dresses demurely, who isn't "bitchy," isn't "bratty," and doesn't ask for much but someone to be nice to her?

That's not the stereotype.  The dudes aren't all swarming over the librarian.

So let's stop having this be about how girls don't go for nice guys.  It's pretty much the same on both sides of the bridge.  I'm tired of this dumb gender coding.

[Max White]

Now when you say "all girls" vector, can I assume we added the "" because it was a quote? Because Solifuge never really said all girls, he was talking about a specific group. Your defence is a little pre-emptive here, as I can't find the specific line where Solifuge made a generalisation about all girls.

[Vector]

Now when you say "all girls" vector, can I assume we added the "" because it was a quote? Because Solifuge never really said all girls, he was talking about a specific group. Your defence is a little pre-emptive here, as I can't find the specific line where Solifuge made a generalisation about all girls.

Bah, let me make this clear:

There's this weird rumor flying around that "girls" want "bad boys" and that the "nice guys" are just being ignored by the unfeeling bitch female population.

That forgets the mirror situation, in which many guys want "bad girls" and "nice girls" are ignored by the ... whatever else population.

The "quote" is because it's a generalization that I don't feel comfortable saying it out of quotes.  The "girls want x" meme is not something I'm responding directly to from Solifuge's post--I should have made that clearer.  I'm talking to the stereotype, partially being expressed here (which is pissing me off) and much more prevalently expressed elsewhere (which really, really pisses me off).

I'm sorry for being confusing.

[SalmonGod]

How many men go for the nice girl, the quiet, studious, and kind girl, who doesn't run around showing off her assets, who dresses demurely, who isn't "bitchy," isn't "bratty," and doesn't ask for much but someone to be nice to her?

*raises hand*

But I'm unusual.  I totally agree with your point.  I'd say an equal number of guys can be found guilty of the same thing in reverse.  I'd also LIKE to say that the type of person who is attracted to asshats isn't worth a nice guy/girl's time, and they should stop worrying about it... but this isn't always true.  Even the librarian type you described falls for it.  One of my best friends, who is the #1 rejected nice guy I know, was recently dumped by a phd microbiologist, and I'm pretty sure it was for topic reasons.

It's just sad all-around (and not just woe for the people suffering rejection but also the people bringing undeserved abuse upon themselves and the world for the propagation of asshole genes), and I only chimed in because it rubbed me the wrong way when people started implying that the rejected nice guy/girl stereotype doesn't actually exist and is always a malicious lie.

[Vector]

It's just sad all-around, and I only chimed in because it rubbed me the wrong way when people started implying that the rejected nice guy/girl stereotype doesn't actually exist and is always a malicious lie.

Yeah, I think there's something about less-nice people probably being more noticeable in general, possibly feeling like more of a conquest.  I think the ridiculous "but I am so NICE why will she not FUCK ME" thing is, well, ridiculous.  Oddly, I've never seen girls saying quite that same thing.  Sad about not being able to get a date: yes.  "Why do only sluts get boys:" no.  In general, there's enough slut-shaming going on on the girl side that you really don't want to be the girl all the guys go for, even if you'd sort of like to be the girl all the guys go for--I imagine much like one really wants to be a nice guy, even if you'd sort of like not to be one.

So, I do think that it may be troublesome for a "nice guy" in a way that it usually isn't for "nice women."  Nice women are rewarded by society, as in they're the "desirable female archetype."  There's a different sort of societal/sexual interaction on both sides... it's kind of interesting.

Thank you for validating my point, though.  It's nice to have someone agree >_<