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Author Topic: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Trust-o-nomics Edition  (Read 3691793 times)

tompliss

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32325 on: February 04, 2014, 11:02:27 am »

TL;DR: any given proposal would create more problems than it would solve, and the whole thing smacks of some sort of bizarre White Man's Burden, anyways.
Really reminds me of that xkcd :
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Lagslayer

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32326 on: February 04, 2014, 11:53:41 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I think there's been a misunderstanding. I never meant to imply you need to fully master a language before moving to an area where is is predominant. I meant to imply that an effort should be made to learn it as fast as possible. Currently, every accommodation is being made so that they never have to learn the native language, at the expense of the natives.

kaijyuu

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32327 on: February 04, 2014, 12:16:16 pm »

What expense?

If you're talking tax money, understand your taxes don't solely go to things that benefit you. That's kinda the point.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

scriver

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32328 on: February 04, 2014, 12:27:28 pm »

I'd also be interested in knowing what "every accommodation" means more specifically.
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Lagslayer

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32329 on: February 04, 2014, 02:08:52 pm »

I'd also be interested in knowing what "every accommodation" means more specifically.
note: speaking from a US standpoint

Multiple languages on all packaging, special translators everywhere, dual language schools. Employers aren't allowed to fire people who can't perform their job because they don't speak English. All of these put more strain on the native population, to accommodate a relatively fewer number of people. It is unfair to expect the entire nation to help accommodate immigrants who move here voluntarily, but won't meet us half-way to making the relationship work.

Additionally, such barriers breed resentment among both sides.

kaijyuu

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32330 on: February 04, 2014, 02:20:25 pm »

I don't really see the first two being negatives (or positives), third one I'd argue is a good thing, fourth one I wonder why they were hired in the first place.

I reeeeaaally find it difficult to believe that immigrants are lazy and leeching off society somehow, considering they tend to take the garbage jobs and are on the bad end of racism and prejudice all the time.

Quote
All of these put more strain on the native population, to accommodate a relatively fewer number of people.
As for this particular line, you could replace "immigrants" with any minority and it's the same: that's the majority's responsibility. It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak. Noblesse oblige. With great power comes great responsibility. All that spiderman junk.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Lagslayer

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32331 on: February 04, 2014, 02:25:40 pm »

I don't really see the first two being negatives (or positives), third one I'd argue is a good thing, fourth one I wonder why they were hired in the first place.

I reeeeaaally find it difficult to believe that immigrants are lazy and leeching off society somehow, considering they tend to take the garbage jobs and are on the bad end of racism and prejudice all the time.

Quote
All of these put more strain on the native population, to accommodate a relatively fewer number of people.
As for this particular line, you could replace "immigrants" with any minority and it's the same: that's the majority's responsibility. It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak. Noblesse oblige. With great power comes great responsibility. All that spiderman junk.
You would be asking every individual of a very large demographic to help accommodate and fit countless minority demographics, instead of asking the individuals of the minority demographics to accommodate just one central demographic? Standards exist so that an individual doesn't have to compensate for too much at a time. Standards give common ground so people can interact with each other in a meaningful fashion.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32332 on: February 04, 2014, 02:39:54 pm »

Kaijyuu, if you really insist on using a non-Eurocentric language that is neutral (because not used by any particularly powerful demographic), I suggest Pirahã. Otherwise, figure out just what on earth you mean by "neutral"; whatever it is, it's not something any linguist would recognize as a Thing.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

kaijyuu

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32333 on: February 04, 2014, 02:41:54 pm »

@lagslayer
Non-equivalence, dude. You're asking a large thing so you can avoid a small thing.

Kaijyuu, if you really insist on using a non-Eurocentric language that is neutral (because not used by any particularly powerful demographic), I suggest Pirahã. Otherwise, figure out just what on earth you mean by "neutral"; whatever it is, it's not something any linguist would recognize as a Thing.
I neither insisted nor did I use the term "neutral" anywhere.

In fact I seem to recall conceding this particular point :P
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32334 on: February 04, 2014, 02:43:40 pm »

@lagslayer
Non-equivalence, dude. You're asking a large thing so you can avoid a small thing.

Kaijyuu, if you really insist on using a non-Eurocentric language that is neutral (because not used by any particularly powerful demographic), I suggest Pirahã. Otherwise, figure out just what on earth you mean by "neutral"; whatever it is, it's not something any linguist would recognize as a Thing.
I neither insisted nor did I use the term "neutral" anywhere.

In fact I seem to recall conceding this particular point :P

OK, fair.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32335 on: February 04, 2014, 02:54:01 pm »

I just don't want to have to learn a new language unless I choose to go somewhere where they speak something different. The corollary is that if someone comes to a place where the predominant language is French, you better learn French or you will remain an outsider. Refusing to learn French and trying to operate within your expat cultural oasis (like a Chinatown) shows, among other things, that you don't really want to be a part of that culture. To the current citizens, that looks an awful lot like you want all the benefits of being there but you don't want to actually join them. Which means the immigrant is purposefully creating a rift, intentionally living as a stranger to the tribe, and perhaps hoping that his cultural cell will grow to accommodate his needs and even compete with the local native culture. Which is reprehensible and threatening to the local native. It is like a knife in the back which you are forbidden from removing.

It is simple. If you immigrate you are leaving the old world and the old life behind. Learn the damn language, participate in the damn culture, or gtfo. You belong wherever you make an effort to integrate.

That doesn't mean you have to give up your history, language, religion, etc. But your kids need to have the local culture at minimum, and you can add whatever else from the homeland that you want. Raise your kids bilingual, great. But don't you dare insulate your kids and prevent them from learning the local culture in favor of retaining only your homeland's culture.

Again, immigration is wonderful. Purposefully creating cysts of secretive counterculture is not.

You think there's resentment? I don't want someone else's life change choices to force me to do extra work. If I walk up to the counter at the shop and the guy doesn't speak French, and I'm in France, I'm going to make the universal hand sign for "get your fucking manager to bring another employee". If a machine has an interface that you need to read in French and you don't know French, you don't get to work on that machine. If you want opportunities - if you want to interact with people and things in the place you are moving to - you need to go through the effort to learn the new language. If you want to know what it says on the back of your milk carton you had better step up to the plate and start working at it. It's impractical to have thirty languages duplicating thirty times the same information on a milk carton. See the DMV for an example of how dumb this gets with just ~10 languages - you have a literal wall of text instead of one sign. How is someone going to be able to drive safely and efficiently if they can't understand an unusual road sign?

Not accommodating a language is frequently (intentionally) misinterpreted as an assault on culture. I'm not advocating going into some other country and telling them what language to speak. But if you immigrate, you are expected to melt into that melting pot and if that means your cultural distinctiveness disappears and barely flavors the soup then that's the price of immigrating. If you cared so much about your culture you would live where that culture is strong. You shouldn't expect to be able to spread your culture by transplanting a cell into an economically healthier culture and feeding off of it.

But let's talk about that assault on culture. Do you need those thirty words for snow or sand when neither are prevalent in the area you moved to? Do you need to maintain traditional cooking practices when it's increasingly difficult to acquire the exotic ingredients? I see people walking along in a full body wrap thing, dyed black or bright pink, or a giant turban, and think: those people give no shits about the culture or people here - whatever their evident ethnicity - and again when I see someone in pants and a shirt I consider him a potential local regardless of evident ethnicity. It's not an assault on a person's culture, it's a defense against the outsider which is ingrained in the tribal sociological structure. If I showed up in that person's country wearing cargo shorts and a big ass cowboy hat, or a woman walking around their town showing hair / cleavage / leg, you can bet we would draw some grim stares.

The goal of immigration is that, while the original immigrant may not be able to fully assimilate, the children will be able to go to public school and have native friends, learn the language as a mother tongue, and have excellent opportunities. If you polled immigrants I think many of them would selflessly say they're trying to make a better life for their families. That's great. But you make that better life for them in, say, America by Americanizing them. The extent to which you take on the local culture is the extent to which you will succeed.

This works in subcultures too. You show up at the punk concert, your Army training, the gallery opening, a factory job, or an office job - you're going to be expected to dress and act in very different ways. If you exclude yourself by retaining excessive individuality and operate counter to that subculture you will be a pariah. Counterculture movements just create their own subculture which members must obey. An anticulture movement will have cultural statements, even if that statement requires destruction of obvious cultural symbols or wildly divergent trappings.

Culture is tribalism. Cultures are organized to identify weirdos, strangers, and the insane - so that these may be approached with more suspicion than your fellow tribesmen. Your tribe represents a departure from the need to be suspicious of every man, it represents mutual safety. A person entering your tribal territory proclaiming his stranger-ness is viewed as a threat to the tribe. If he puts down roots and brings in all his cousins that's an invasion. If your children start speaking his language that's a cultural attack.

All cultures want to succeed, to grow, to expand. More territory and more members means more resources and more stability, more mutual safety. When two cultures butt together a border, a skin is created which identifies the "others" not only culturally but geographically. Accepting cultural invaders means your cultural-geographic territory is pockmarked with these cysts of outsiders. You hope, you desperately hope that these cultural infections wither and die rather than expand and create a new front on the cultural battleground, breaking up your territory, separating you from your tribesmen, depriving you of resources.

And a strong culture can steal from other cultures. We feel safe enough that we can import immigrants because we know that we can destroy their culture and they - or their children - will join us and make us stronger. The mixing of genes is excellent, the taking of ideas, even the contributions from other languages. But these are things we take, not things that are foisted off on us. We like Playstation because it's a good toy and because we don't feel threatened by the Japanese. We like oil because we need it desperately and we delude ourselves on where it comes from; maybe this tank of gas came from Canada or Venezuela. And we feel superior to Venezuela and it's OK that we send them some money for their fuel.

If Venezuela were a superpower maybe we would be unwilling to buy from them - unless we deluded ourselves into thinking we were cheating them, getting an excellent deal. I think that's why we buy cheap and often poisonous Chinese goods. Or perhaps it is an allied tribe, in the case of Japan, meaning that even if the deal is evenly matched we still feel OK about trading with them. If another tribe is our superior, perhaps we are cowed into accepting a trade, or else this is simply the best trade available. In that case we would feel bad about the trade but hope that some day we could grow our culture and overcome them and force them to accept OUR shitty trades! Again, the struggle of cultures vying for supremacy, vying for control, but in reality just trying to survive and prosper and be safe.
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Descan

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32336 on: February 04, 2014, 04:54:11 pm »

Well that was a horrifying wall of text.

Seriously, all I care about is that you can understand when I say something to you. :I You can wear a turban or whatever, I don't care.

Anyway, I'm just holding out for quick-and-easy vocal machine translation. Just wear an earpiece or something and you hear something, it translates.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32337 on: February 04, 2014, 05:11:16 pm »

Anyway, I'm just holding out for quick-and-easy vocal machine translation. Just wear an earpiece or something and you hear something, it translates.
That'd be neat but... they'd probably translate with the same level of quality as google translate :X
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Karkov

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32338 on: February 04, 2014, 05:18:38 pm »

Eh, give it some time.  Soon we'll all speak alien dialect and have to save the universe from the Reapers or something.

LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: SON OF A BROWSER! Edition
« Reply #32339 on: February 04, 2014, 05:39:28 pm »

I figure more likely than getting involved with a galaxy-spanning disaster, we would just end up getting engulfed in some exotic cloud of something or whatever and all life in the solar system gets extinguished instantly.
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