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[Max White]

Well, I don't think evolution and morality and totally unrelated subjects. The important thing to understand is that evolution dosn't actually mean survival of the fittest, like many think, or even survival of the individual most adapt to survive, like some think. Look at the tardigrade, one of its most important survival features is the ability to curl up and die when food is short so that other tardigrades can eat its corpse and survive. This feature doesn't benefit the individual, but it does ensure the survival of the colony in question. True, in one colony a mutation may occur where an individual does not die to nourish the rest. It would still benefit from the death of the others, there as it would be the most fit to survive and would propagate. Right up until the entire colony is this strand of non-suicidal tardigrades, and then none of them will sacrifice themselves, and they all die. The colony where this mutation didn't occur, however is still going strong.

Morality is much the same. Primitive tribes where back stabbing was acceptable would have died out in favor of those that were more "moral", that is willing to support the collective.

[misko27]

Spoiler: Please end the conversation. (click to show/hide)

And another quote from the same movie:

May: Wait a minute. Are you telling me that you prefer God to the truth?
Sol: If it is necessary, I will always choose God over truth.

I will never compromise my morals due to what others tell me is true. And, again, another thing, Religion is not all about god. it is about, a system of values, no matter how many Evangelicals spin it into madness, or how many people think that god not existing means all of religion is bunkum.

;_;

I fear our 'morals' simply differ too much to ever come to an agreement.

As i said literally in the same post that you responded to:

I've noticed something else too. People, simply cannot understand, other people. They simply can't. You can try, but you can't. It is not possible. Humans are inherently too diverse. You can understand some of them, but the fact that some people genuinely prefer, say, iron-fisted authoritarianism over democracy, and aren't being blinded or misled or anything, genuinely prefering security to freedoms, simply does not occur to say, libertarians. It simply doesn't.

I just want to agree to disagree.

I thought the fear in "a god fearing mean" was an anachronism, like this use of fear is meant to mean to respect and obey.  Like you would respect and obey your parents, your king, what have you.  Not literally fear.  I... I figured this is what it meant and I'm still weirded out by debates about it o_o

Respect and obey because they will hurt you if you don't. Parents have the authority to punish their children. Kings have the authority to imprison, torture or execute their subjects. Gods have the authority to unmake you, or to damn you to eternal torment.

There is always another quote from this movie:

Your aunt has lived a very bitter life Judah.

Again, Nadaka, Pardon, But I don't care. i really don't. I can't pretend I care. You're view is simply different then mine, and All I would like is for you to respect that. You can think high-minded thoughts about why I am wrong for as long as I can do the same to you, just accept the difference in opinion.

Well, I don't think evolution and morality and totally unrelated subjects. The important thing to understand is that evolution dosn't actually mean survival of the fittest, like many think, or even survival of the individual most adapt to survive, like some think. Look at the tardigrade, one of its most important survival features is the ability to curl up and die when food is short so that other tardigrades can eat its corpse and survive. This feature doesn't benefit the individual, but it does ensure the survival of the colony in question. True, in one colony a mutation may occur where an individual does not die to nourish the rest. It would still benefit from the death of the others, there as it would be the most fit to survive and would propagate. Right up until the entire colony is this strand of non-suicidal tardigrades, and then none of them will sacrifice themselves, and they all die. The colony where this mutation didn't occur, however is still going strong.

Morality is much the same. Primitive tribes where back stabbing was acceptable would have died out in favor of those that were more "moral", that is willing to support the collective.

Well, that is true in some animals, but there are others where they will literally fight to the death to advantage their own lineage. Depends on the importance of society to the animals.

[jhxmt]

Morality is much the same. Primitive tribes where back stabbing was acceptable would have died out in favor of those that were more "moral", that is willing to support the collective.

Well, that is true in some animals, but there are others where they will literally fight to the death to advantage their own lineage. Depends on the importance of society to the animals.

If you think about it, that's not really the case.  The animals' level of 'caring' about their society, in the example Max White gave, is actually a result of the evolutionary trend, not a cause.  Some species 'care' about their society more than others do because there has been some sort of selection pressure that has promoted the survival of genes that support other species members (which will share the same genes).  A slight oversimplification, but it gives the gist.

Following Max's example: tardigrades 'care' about other tardigrades because by doing so, the genes that code for 'caring behaviour' are more likely to survive to the next generation.  Tardigrades that don't 'care' do not have genes the code for that behaviour...and neither do their close relatives (because they're close relatives), so they don't have that familial support, so they are more likely to die out in circumstances where that support is necessary.

Talking about genes coding for behaviours is very slippery ground, though, so treat all of the above as a thought experiment rather than a literal description. 

[Max White]

Well, that is true in some animals, but there are others where they will literally fight to the death to advantage their own lineage. Depends on the importance of society to the animals.

That really depends on what promotes the survival of the species at the time.
Many group predators have a pecking order when it comes to food. The benefits the species because it ensures there will always be a few select members who are fit enough to survive and reproduce.

There are many different ways to survive, and morality arises through one of those methods. Immorality comes from another.

[SalmonGod]

I will never compromise my morals due to what others tell me is true. And, again, another thing, Religion is not all about god. it is about, a system of values, no matter how many Evangelicals spin it into madness, or how many people think that god not existing means all of religion is bunkum.

The problem you're running into, misko, is right here.  You are projecting your personal feelings about religion and what it means to you onto religion as a whole.  You're taking it to such an extent that you're contradicting yourself in a single sentence.  I read the above quote as "Even if this is what religion means to some people, that's still not what it actually means to them."

I don't think anybody is arguing with you about your personal religious beliefs.  They're arguing with you because you're acting as if your personal religious beliefs speak for everyone. 

Religion means different things to different people. 

My personal stance on it for the last 15 years has been to develop the most comprehensive moral system possible and live up to it to the best of my ability.  If there is no god, then I'll have no regrets.  If there is a god and he judges me according to my life and character, then I'll have earned my place.  If there is a god and he judges me according to whether or not I fearfully stroked his megalomaniacal ego, then I'd rather accept whatever consequences are in store for me than reinforce that god's disgusting mentality.

I tell this to religious people, and get widely varying responses.  Some people tell me I'll be fine.  God cares about my goodness and integrity more than anything.  Others tell me that I'll burn in hell for not being in church every Sunday, and no amount of goodness elsewhere will change that.  Clearly your perspective on religion is not as universal as it seems you're trying to make it out to be.

And I'm not sure why you'd make such strong assertions, especially ones that involve criticizing other's points of view, if you're not prepared to deal with criticism.  "I'm going to say this thing that is going to be taken personally by a lot of other people, but please don't disagree with me" is... just not very mature.  I can't think of a nicer way to put it.

[Neonivek]

Finally started watching an anime I was putting off out of fear of it turning to suck (which it tends to)

And it managed to... Turn to suck... in EXACTLY the way I expected it to.

[Scoops Novel]

This is not intended to go anywhere threadwise, but unless you have a justification to pm me, i'll consider this a persistent self delusion. Edit: If relevant, imagine you're selling it to our ancestors who lived for the many many years before Christ came around, and more importantly, someone who would like to know why their life is hell. Not someone religious whose life is hell, specifically as i stated it.

[misko27]

This is not intended to go anywhere threadwise, but unless you have a justification to pm me, i'll consider this a persistent self delusion. Edit: If relevant, imagine you're selling it to our ancestors who lived for the many many years before Christ came around, and more importantly, someone who would like to know why their life is hell. Not someone religious whose life is hell, specifically as i stated it.

Because clearly, I am enjoying this, and I wish for the opportunity to be told how wrong I am on multiple levels. I get enough of this from home, Bay12, you can direct it to someone else. Clearly, this is going nowhere, and I am now repeating things I've said multiple times to people dropping in the conversation from nowhere. Seriously, some of the posts now are actually agreeing with me, except for things I explained earlier. I do not plan to continue the conversation.

Finally started watching an anime I was putting off out of fear of it turning to suck (which it tends to)

And it managed to... Turn to suck... in EXACTLY the way I expected it to.

Thing is, things tend to turn to suck in ways you expect pretty often, which is why it NOT happening like that is so cool.

[Neonivek]

Ohh well it got better... sort of.

Thing is, things tend to turn to suck in ways you expect pretty often, which is why it NOT happening like that is so cool

Extremely.

Though I have had a few animes teach me why some clichés are clichés. For example you know how the hero never seems to lose the tournament?

I saw an anime where exactly that happened they lost the major tournament. I was surprised and in awe! That awe quickly turned to boredom as it just meant the series was extended as the hero needs to train for next year's tournament.

[Max White]

Was it Pokemon? Because I'm pretty sure you just described pokemon.

[Neonivek]

Was it Pokemon? Because I'm pretty sure you just described pokemon.

It wasn't Pokémon but pokemon got annoying in that Ash NEVER Wins a league (Ignoring the two times it happened... but one was a subleague and the other was a sort of 'yes we know Ash will never win a league but here is what would happen if he did')

[Vector]

Well there is Dragonball.  The main character only won the tournament once.

[Max White]

You know, I don't think winning the tournament is actually that common in anime. I think they just always loose so the series can go on. And then introduce more pokemon to catch.

[Neonivek]

I am walking about the Center of the Plot tournament the one where if you lose the anime is pretty much over.

Also nevermind they disabled the female cast again in an insulting way.

[SalmonGod]

It's so classy how police use tazers as tools for torturing people that annoy them.