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Author Topic: Capitalism in gov't, etc.  (Read 2113 times)

Eagleon

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Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« on: June 11, 2010, 12:51:30 pm »

So, I have an issue. My issue is the DMV. Well, not just the DMV by any means, but it's an example of something I see developing in many non-elective bureaus of the US government.

The DMV (in Wisconsin, likely different for each state) charges $35 for a driver's license or learner's permit, and $25 (I believe) for a State ID. Now, that in itself I have no issue with. It's steep for a bit of plastic, but I understand there are costs involved with processing information and paying every cog in the machine to move a stack of papers one space to the left, right? Right?

Well, the problem I have is that I'm already paying taxes to support the extant bureaucracy. The explanation I was given, from someone that has worked in the DMV, is that they don't get enough from taxes. Ok, maybe they were misinformed. But it makes my neck itch.

Why, you ask? Well, there's this little thing called capitalism (groans heard, acknowledged :P). Capitalism is fine, it works ok, sort of, that's not the issue of this post. I'm not going to bash it here. The problem I have is thusly: In private capitalism (as I understand it, mind), competition increases efficiency because paying every guy that waves a sign around on the road to get you to buy a pizza a 50k/yr income is a massive waste of resources that could be spent on competing with others. If the DMV is not getting enough money from taxes to support their State ID program (which is OMG SOCIALISM or something, I dunno), and they need to charge money for their IDs beyond a nominal deterrent for careless loss (and I can tell you, $35 in my financial position is not in the least bit nominal), what entity competes with them to keep that money from ending up in the hands of Joe Dropout?

In addition, if a venture is non-competetive without tax support, is it sane for a state-run body to fill their coffers in the same way as private businesses? I'm speaking specifically of my city's public transit system (Milwaukee) facing its financial crisis with substantial yearly fare increases combined with lowered services. As a result, private solutions seem to be rapidly eroding MCTS's viability - I see daily fewer city buses than non-city. It's just weird to me. Milwaukee literally could not survive as it is without the bus service (I think you'd have to live here for long enough to see how many low to mid-class workers depend on it to understand), and yet people with vehicles (my parents included, both federal employees) are outraged at the thought of supporting it further with taxes. NIMBY problem I suppose.

I realize these issues must be debated somewhere (and often), but I'm a lowly IT-Dev student in a technical college, not a poli-sci major or even remotely interested in spending time on a course for it. I post this here because I legitimately am interested in the opinions of the forumites here - you guys have excellent, informative debates, which I'm usually only able to sit on the sidelines for. So what do you think?
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Nikov

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2010, 02:05:34 pm »

Why aren't the buses run by a private company?

Why hasn't your state privatized its bureaus?

Indiana did this. Only state running a surplus in a sea of red, red, red.
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Grakelin

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2010, 02:10:30 pm »

My province privatized its DMV, and it has been nothing but a disaster.
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DJ

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2010, 02:10:54 pm »

Dunno, I can see some sense in subsidizing buses just to reduce the number of cars on the streets. Traffic jams are horrible, and they cause significant losses in general productivity.
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Nikov

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2010, 02:16:49 pm »

Dunno, I can see some sense in subsidizing buses just to reduce the number of cars on the streets. Traffic jams are horrible, and they cause significant losses in general productivity.

Ah, SimCity logic. Charge a quarter for a bus ride, pay the rest off in seventy five cent taxes, and the poor are happy while the rich pay for something they don't use. I say, put out bids to allow two competing bus companies in town, let them compete with eachother and streamline their costs, and then you'll never spend a dime on the program and can use your tax dollars for things everyone uses, like fixing potholes. Subidize only if certain areas aren't getting service because of the demographics.

Did you know the US spends millions of dollars in wool subsidies? Its a strategic resource for military uniforms and we ran short in WWI, so they passed a law about it.
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DJ

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2010, 02:20:18 pm »

City as a whole gains something from it, by reducing congestion, therefore all citizens gain something (if you've ever tried parking your car in city centre, you'll know what I'm talking about). Subsidies and competition aren't mutually exclusive, mind you - just grant the subsidy to the private company that offers the lowest price. Subsidies are needed to make buses more attractive than cars, so people use cars less.
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Eagleon

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2010, 02:26:31 pm »

Why aren't the buses run by a private company?

Why hasn't your state privatized its bureaus?

Indiana did this. Only state running a surplus in a sea of red, red, red.

MCTS is county-operated, not State, I should say. It used to be privately owned. Was taken over by the county in 1975. I don't work for them, but I'm sure plenty of things are contracted internally to private companies. That's what the government always does nowadays. It's been routinely supported by vote - no one wants to see it disappear. But it's been notoriously difficult to manage. You don't increase price and decrease service if you want to stay competitive, and that's exactly what they've been doing because otherwise they don't have enough to operate. So there are small transport solutions opening up everywhere (and I've considered a novel business model myself for the area), but in the mean-time none of them have comprehensive service while still being affordable to lower income workers. The local economy has suffered needlessly as a result.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 02:28:59 pm by Eagleon »
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Nikov

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2010, 02:28:45 pm »

City as a whole gains something from it, by reducing congestion, therefore all citizens gain something (if you've ever tried parking your car in city centre, you'll know what I'm talking about). Subsidies and competition aren't mutually exclusive, mind you - just grant the subsidy to the private company that offers the lowest price. Subsidies are needed to make buses more attractive than cars, so people use cars less.

Ah, but if the purpose of your subsidy is to make buses more attractive than cars, then you concede that cars are more attractive than buses by default. However you also say that parking is expensive, and the traffic problems congest the city streets. So clearly buses are more attractive than cars within certain parameters, and I say let a business fill the need of people who would prefer to take a bus, rather than have the city operate the buses. Private taxi companies do this already, after all. If cities were subsidizing their bus line with taxpayer dollars, it could be possible to compete with the city line as a private industry.
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DJ

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2010, 02:38:42 pm »

Well, the city shouldn't actually own any bus companies, it should just give a yearly contract to the lowest bidder among the private companies.

And yeah, congestion is a bitch, but people still go everywhere with a car because it's more comfortable and they like showing off their cars. It's why so many people drive SUVs instead of much more economical small cars. To make buses attractive, they have to be dirt cheap.

The ideal solution is light rail, but it's not feasible everywhere.

But anyway, you seem to think how this is all useless layabout working class leeching off the hard-working business owners. But business doesn't exist in vacuum, it needs a suitable environment to thrive. One very important part of this is infrastructure, which includes transportation for workers and customers.
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Virex

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2010, 02:47:48 pm »

Why aren't the buses run by a private company?

Why hasn't your state privatized its bureaus?

Indiana did this. Only state running a surplus in a sea of red, red, red.

MCTS is county-operated, not State, I should say. It used to be privately owned. Was taken over by the county in 1975. I don't work for them, but I'm sure plenty of things are contracted internally to private companies. That's what the government always does nowadays. It's been routinely supported by vote - no one wants to see it disappear. But it's been notoriously difficult to manage. You don't increase price and decrease service if you want to stay competitive, and that's exactly what they've been doing because otherwise they don't have enough to operate. So there are small transport solutions opening up everywhere (and I've considered a novel business model myself for the area), but in the mean-time none of them have comprehensive service while still being affordable to lower income workers. The local economy has suffered needlessly as a result.
I strongly disagree with that, based upon my own experience with the privatization of public transport in Holland. Both in the case of railroad and bus transport, privatization has led to a drop in the amount of lines serviced, replacement of booth personnel with automated vending machines, understaffing of trains (especially when it comes to cleaners) and congestion of vehicles during prime time.


The reason for this is that cutting quality is very easy when people depend on your service. Especially with public transport, it's not viable for 2 companies to service the same line or even similar lines because of the relative high demand a single line can service. Besides that there's no competition between using it and not using it because people can't stay away from work. Add to that the fact that some lines aren't viable without subsidies at all and you'll see a drop in service and lines serviced.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 02:51:20 pm by Virex »
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Andir

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2010, 02:49:42 pm »

As a result, private solutions seem to be rapidly eroding MCTS's viability - I see daily fewer city buses than non-city.
Wait... you're complaining that there's no viable competitor in most of your post (to the DMV), then you point out how Capitalism IS working by providing people a service that's "better" (for them) than the public service and you complain about it?
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Strife26

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2010, 02:51:22 pm »

Why aren't the buses run by a private company?

Why hasn't your state privatized its bureaus?

Indiana did this. Only state running a surplus in a sea of red, red, red.

ND is running an amazing surplus, thank you very much.

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nenjin

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2010, 02:54:47 pm »

He's not saying private solutions are destroying mass transit; he's saying private solutions are destroying state-funded mass transit, so why are city and local governments even bothering?

I'm not giving an opinion, just trying to clarify his, since you seemed to be hot to spot a contradiction.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 02:57:07 pm by nenjin »
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DJ

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2010, 03:00:08 pm »

They're only doping it because city jacked up it's prices horribly. It's like if city suddenly raised cost of your water ten-fold, and then a private competitor offered to connect you to his water pipes for half the cost. Sure, it's cheaper, but you're still paying water five times more than it used to cost, so you're entitled to a bit of disgruntlement.
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Duuvian

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Re: Capitalism in gov't, etc.
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2010, 03:05:48 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's possible there is someone corrupt siphoning off money. It seems to be fairly easy to get away with due to people being lazy and being willing to trust an accountant to do the accounting.

Something I'd have to know is whether they raised wages or benefits recently? Also, I think pretty much all the states are terribly short of funds. I read a week or two back that Massachusets is going to a 4 day school week.

Long story personal experience story follows about corruption in local government:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that if you think there is a problem, check out some facts. The budget documentation should be available to you as the public in a Freedom of Information act I would assume. If you can give us that we'd be able to help you out a lot more.

If you're asking whether the local government should be able to increase taxes while reducing service, it really matters on a couple things. The first would be whether it's simply trying to make up revenue lost from the state or federal government. That's where the budget comes in handy to check, especially if you can compare it with the previous years. If it turns out lost revenue isn't the case, I'd say you might have a corrupt official(s) somewhere, who is probably in charge of or related to the actual accounting somehow.

The lack of state and federal funds are likely the largest role in this though, because in today's times silly things that benefit the everyman like education and public transport pale in comparison to the importance of two unpopular wars that obviously must be "won" at all costs, and those costs are determined by the companies who supply the war material. However, anytime money is moving around people are tempted to take a little bit for themselves and I wouldn't put it past them to settle on reduced state and federal aid as an excellent camouflage for pinching a bit.

Also, I believe your concerns about "Joe Dropout" are unfounded.

1:Your implied disdain for people on unemployment benefits is misguided. In order to qualify (at least in Michigan) you must have held a full time job within a certain time frame beforehand; and held it for I think at least 6 months and to have lost your job through no fault of your own, IE the company fails or downsizes. This is also I think about 2/3s of whatever you made at your last job. If "Joe Dropout" was being paid minimum wage at his last full time job, and "Joe McFactory" made $30 an hour operating heavy machinery before being laid off through no fault of his own, "Mcfactory" is actually taking much more of your taxes than the dropout. The same goes for "Joe McMastersinbusiness." Wisconsin could have a system that is vastly different I suppose, but Michigan's really isn't heavily geared towards benefiting the poor, uneducated, or lazy over the wealthy, learned, or industrious. Even if it's on a sliding scale, the scale would have to be extreme for the benefits to scale dishonestly as your former wages become lower.

2: I'm not very knowledgeable on state budget laws, but I would guess that any surplus or profit goes into a special account. At this point the government has several options, the most logical of which is relatively safe investment, perhaps in Federal bonds or the highest interest bank account possible. They could also transfer it to budgets with a shortfall, one of which like you said could be unemployment benefits. However, I'd guess that the system is designed (before corruption) to generally not make a profit except through an incorrect, accidental forecast and thus there is no need for capitalist competition within the government. I suppose I could argue that private taxis provide some competition, but not all cities have a large fleet of them available.

Also, here is a link I just found. I'm too half conscious from the need to sleep to go through stuff about budgets now though.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/about/budget.htm

EDIT 2: I talked to my dad about Michigan unemployment benefits and there is a cap of $1300 monthly. I suppose it could be argued that having a cap benefits the poor more than the wealthy who pay more into the system. This is a good argument, if a selfish one. I'd say though in my opinion that if you can't live off $1300 a month while being able to keep the benefits, even with a part time job which is allowed, you're living too well for an unemployed person and if your wages were high enough to hit the cap you should have some saved up for hard times anyways.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 09:49:13 pm by Duuvian »
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