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[Deathworks]

Hi!

Just to avoid confusion: For one thing, I am more focusing on the history of manga. Secondly, of course there was anime and manga before Tezuka Osamu and Disney. The point that I was making was that the main stream of manga production until recent times, at least, has been heavily influenced by the ideas of Tezuka Osamu, who himself was inspired by Disney (however, he surpassed Disney by far content-wise). And you can believe me one thing: If I could deny the influence of Tezuka Osamu on modern manga, I would do so in a heart beat, and only if to annoy Susanne Phillips (not that she would care, though).

As for outsourcing, I recommend checking the staff list for Gargoyles - either Disney did some racial profiling among their American staff, or it was drawn in Asia. Interestingly enough, even though the person in charge did not sound particularly Asian, Gargoyles showed at least a little bit of ambitions to move beyond the usual Disney fare as far as depth was concerned. At least in my personal opinion, it was the best Disney production I have seen (if we ignore their movies aimed at very small children, of course, which do work for their target audience).

Since it was hinted at, I may point out that the main stream seems to be dominated by female manga artists - in a peculiar twist of fate thereby giving them back the seat of creativity. Not only do they dominate shoujo manga (which makes additional sense as these are aimed at a female audience), but they are also quite successful in shounen manga (e.g. Takahashi Rumiko).

Smigenboger: As I hinted at before, I think there are weird people within every fandom or community (I know, I know, I shouldn't be talking :) :) :) ). It is just because anime do currently have some influence on main stream American and European popular culture (Japanese shows shown on European TV, animation shows in a fake "anime" style, etc.), the spot light is on them and they get more media coverage. And media always focus on the extreme. It won't do to tell about all the normal people who enjoy this, you need the freaks and weirdoes, such raising expectations among the population that everyone in that subculture belongs to those extremes.

Deathworks

[fenrif]

Yeah modern computer technology means you can do an animated series with much much less staff than before. But you're still paying those staff. Why pay American wages when you can pay korean wages? Why pay Korean when you can pay Indian? You still only need to hire a dozen people or so, but you can pay them 50% less and get the same product delivered on the same schedule.

Usually its only the jobs that don't require a lot of skill or creativity that get outsourced, for one reason or another if you do it looks like a Chinese knockoff.

http://www.forkparty.com/chinese-superhero-knockoff-fails/

Generally animation studios will do the writing, directing and key framing in house and only outsource the transition frames.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_frame

Basically like any other form of industrial automation it reduced the need for factory floor workers but isn't going to replace the engineers or managers anytime soon.

EDIT:
You get what you pay for and outsourcing isn't a magic bullet

Nice way to provide sources that don't really in any way back up what you're saying. I know what key frame animation is, and I know that knock off toys exist, but neither of those things in any way support your arguement.

Obviously they aren't going to tell the Indian animation studio to do character designs, or script work. But I don't see how people in India or Korea are intrinsically less skilled than people in America, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

[Leafsnail]

Recently, I found out that Korean wages are actually higher than wages in Britain.  Apparently they outsource to us :/.

[kuro_suna]

Nice way to provide sources that don't really in any way back up what you're saying. I know what key frame animation is, and I know that knock off toys exist, but neither of those things in any way support your arguement.

Obviously they aren't going to tell the Indian animation studio to do character designs, or script work.

So what are you arguing, do I need to provide a source explaining how animation tools work and why computer can't do concept art or story boarding. Or are you just going to keep complaining about sources until I stop trying to argue with you and you can pretend you won be default?

But I don't see how people in India or Korea are intrinsically less skilled than people in America, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

Most likely its just that the skilled people in emergent economies can command equal or greater wages than their western counterparts and therefor would eliminate the point of outsourcing.

[Kogan Loloklam]

I disagree on the weapon point. Our knives were unable to pierce the armor of the heavily armored knight also. The katana has it's charmes due to it's extremely light weight and manouvrability while retaining a top strength. It is really remarkable how light they really are.
Before you ask, I have katana's and medievil onehanders. the katana's win by far. Certainly with the fighting skills the samurai had next to them. I honestly believe that a trained samurai would win from a trained knight.

Yeah, guys, I also have lots of replica weapons and my aluminium katana wins out because I've went up against a knight in full body armour and WON lol.

See, this is the prime example of "I DONT HAVE A CLUE". He says knives can't go through full body armour (), samurais would win (despite being in seriously inferior equipment, and POTENTIALLY just being trained thugs - depending on what Japanese period we're talking about, of course) and that katanas have a good strength.

Buying aluminium katanas and then claiming that they'd win out against Western weaponry isn't good, k guys?

... Whatever, I'm out.

Yea, you better run!

*Raises up his Mācuahuitl and prepares to cut off a horse's head!*
Obsidian-studded clubs trump aluminum!

How's THAT for western weaponry? It's documented claims by people who absolutely hated the culture are usually greater than the claims of the fanboys of Japanese culture. But like everything, skill matters in old martial arts (in the broad, if its a weapon it's martial sense, not the kung-fu sense), and that is why the gun rules the world today. I'm certain there are knights who would lose to Samurai, and Samurai who would lose to knights. Even our tanks have taken losses in modern warfare against people armed with high school chemistry sets.


Deathworks put it best when he described what it meant to "adopt" it. I really can't add more on the subject than that, since all but the worst stuff is an example of what it means to have a melting pot.

See that, I managed NOT to rip the head off of smigenboger who had successfully managed to offend me no less than 6 times in a single post, by ignoring everything he said (and backing the heck off this post until I could pull that off to this degree.)

[Soadreqm]

You silly katana fanboys with your silly katanas. The Best Sword Ever is the khopesh! Bronze, made of copper and tin, is stronger than both, and the ancient Egyptian weaponsmiths risked life and limb and arsenic poisoning to turn it into the finest weapons of the time. The superior Egyptian weapon technology allowed them to take over the whole Nile, and control enough resources to build what are still some of the largest man-made structures that exist.

I mean, just think about it. By the time the Japanese discovered steel, the Egyptian empire was already long dead, meaning that to get a khopesh, you didn't just find a swordsmith and have him spend a couple of months mucking about with iron-rich sand. Oh, no. You walked into the desert, found and defiled a hallowed tomb built by an ancient death-obsessed civilization, and wrested your weapon from the dessicated fingers of a dead king, who was also the son of of the sun-god Ra. If you saw a man with a khopesh in medieval Japan, you knew that he wasn't someone to fuck with.

[fenrif]

So what are you arguing, do I need to provide a source explaining how animation tools work and why computer can't do concept art or story boarding. Or are you just going to keep complaining about sources until I stop trying to argue with you and you can pretend you won be default?

But I don't see how people in India or Korea are intrinsically less skilled than people in America, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

Most likely its just that the skilled people in emergent economies can command equal or greater wages than their western counterparts and therefor would eliminate the point of outsourcing.

I'm arguing that modern animation companies still outsource to places like India, Korea, The Phillipines, etc. That just because they can work with less staff than they used to need doesn't mean they don't outsource. I know how animation works, I don't understand why you read "Western animation studios outsource to other countries" as "please post wiki articles about basic animation techniques." I'm assuming you seriously misread something in my post?

Your second comment is mind boggling. Why would an animator in India get paid more than someone in the west? Is it because the national average wage is drastically lower than in the US? Do you honestly think that wages are similar between the USA and India or China? Or is it that Animation is such an important job that even though doctors get paid less there than in the west?

[Kogan Loloklam]

You silly katana fanboys with your silly katanas. The Best Sword Ever is the khopesh! Bronze, made of copper and tin, is stronger than both, and the ancient Egyptian weaponsmiths risked life and limb and arsenic poisoning to turn it into the finest weapons of the time. The superior Egyptian weapon technology allowed them to take over the whole Nile, and control enough resources to build what are still some of the largest man-made structures that exist.

I mean, just think about it. By the time the Japanese discovered steel, the Egyptian empire was already long dead, meaning that to get a khopesh, you didn't just find a swordsmith and have him spend a couple of months mucking about with iron-rich sand. Oh, no. You walked into the desert, found and defiled a hallowed tomb built by an ancient death-obsessed civilization, and wrested your weapon from the dessicated fingers of a dead king, who was also the son of of the sun-god Ra. If you saw a man with a khopesh in medieval Japan, you knew that he wasn't someone to fuck with.

I'll grant that the Khopesh would be better than aluminum weapons, and probably iron as well (since Iron was inferior to Bronze, and was mostly used because copper and tin were harder to come by then iron.) but not steel weapons. Of course Skill is still what counts, so I'd have avoided a fight with a khopesh wielder myself, unless they looked like a bungling farmboy (but not Blacksmiths. Everyone knows not to mess with the blacksmiths. They always seem to survive and come back to kill you later. Farmboys are safe, their pathetic defense is only there to convince the reader how terrible of a person you are.)

[kuro_suna]

Your second comment is mind boggling. Why would an animator in India get paid more than someone in the west? Is it because the national average wage is drastically lower than in the US? Do you honestly think that wages are similar between the USA and India or China? Or is it that Animation is such an important job that

A animator that could only fill in the gaps between key frames wouldn't but a skilled production directer could make more.
Poor education system, fewer educated people, supply and demand dictates educated people are worth more.

even though doctors get paid less there than in the west?

The education and skill requirements to call yourself a doctor are also much less developing countries.

[Grakelin]

India has an adequate education system. That's why our call centres are outsourced there.

[Blade_Train3r]

(but not Blacksmiths. Everyone knows not to mess with the blacksmiths. They always seem to survive and come back to kill you later. Farmboys are safe, their pathetic defense is only there to convince the reader how terrible of a person you are.)

Anyone who's job it is to beat something with a hammer all day is not someone to mess with.

[Pathos]

How's THAT for western weaponry? It's documented claims by people who absolutely hated the culture are usually greater than the claims of the fanboys of Japanese culture. But like everything, skill matters in old martial arts (in the broad, if its a weapon it's martial sense, not the kung-fu sense), and that is why the gun rules the world today. I'm certain there are knights who would lose to Samurai, and Samurai who would lose to knights. Even our tanks have taken losses in modern warfare against people armed with high school chemistry sets.

Oh, I've no doubt of that. But the skill requirement for a samurai beating a knight would be far higher than that of a knight beating a samurai. A knight's armour is DESIGNED to prevent the knight from getting cut. Considering katanas are curved blades (and sharp on one side), it's very doubtful that the knight could be stabbed with one (at least with any real amount of force) and neither could they chop through the armour.

I don't doubt there were samurai that could've danced around a knight, slowly cut all the straps holding his armour up THEN killed him, but I doubt there were more than like 10.

Oh, and you have to remember that the samurai would still have to get through the chainmail, then. Again, it's anti-cutting.

[KaelGotDwarves]

This thread is going in a stupid direction and you all should feel stupid.

[Leafsnail]

How's THAT for western weaponry? It's documented claims by people who absolutely hated the culture are usually greater than the claims of the fanboys of Japanese culture. But like everything, skill matters in old martial arts (in the broad, if its a weapon it's martial sense, not the kung-fu sense), and that is why the gun rules the world today. I'm certain there are knights who would lose to Samurai, and Samurai who would lose to knights. Even our tanks have taken losses in modern warfare against people armed with high school chemistry sets.

Oh, I've no doubt of that. But the skill requirement for a samurai beating a knight would be far higher than that of a knight beating a samurai. A knight's armour is DESIGNED to prevent the knight from getting cut. Considering katanas are curved blades (and sharp on one side), it's very doubtful that the knight could be stabbed with one (at least with any real amount of force) and neither could they chop through the armour.

I don't doubt there were samurai that could've danced around a knight, slowly cut all the straps holding his armour up THEN killed him, but I doubt there were more than like 10.

Oh, and you have to remember that the samurai would still have to get through the chainmail, then. Again, it's anti-cutting.

There were weakspots in a knight's armour.  As in, a peasant armed with what was effectively a blade on the end of a stick could easily kill one once he was pulled off his horse.

[DJ]

Oh, are we on the "knights could barely walk in armour" part of the discussion already? Knights could do handstands and cartwheels in full armour, and they could certainly mount a horse on their own. The problem with armour isn't that it's heavy, but that it messes up your centre of gravity. So yeah, if you were to put on a suit of armour, you'd barely be able to walk. But these people spent a lot of time in armour from childhood so they could develop excellent balance in armour.

So no, peasants weren't very likely to kill knights. I mean, sure, it can happen if he's pulled off in the middle of a mob  of peasants and the sheer mass of them stops him from getting up, but it's about as likely as the knight falling off his horse and breaking his neck.