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[Askot Bokbondeler]

there's enough everything for everybody

Let me introduce you to the fundamental issue of economics.

this assumes that there are unlimited human needs and wants, and that there arent enough resources to fulfill an unlimited amounts of needs and wants... we have the technologies to provide enough everything for everyone, and by everything i mean everything but money, money will never be enough, and that's why the scarcity problem still makes sense. take money out of the picture and it's an obsolete conception.

All humans are altruistic.

if communism made that fallacy it wouldn't have spawned so many authoritarian states. you're mistaking us for anarchists

Communist ideology includes this fallacy, by assuming that everybody would work their asses off for the greater good of the whole community.

nope, it doesn't, if communism made that fallacy it wouldn't have spawned so many authoritarian states. you're mistaking us for anarchists

[Josephus]

there's enough everything for everybody

Let me introduce you to the fundamental issue of economics.

this assumes that there are unlimited human needs and wants, and that there arent enough resources to fulfill an unlimited amounts of needs and wants... we have the technologies to provide enough everything for everyone, and by everything i mean everything but money, money will never be enough, and that's why the scarcity problem still makes sense. take money out of the picture and it's an obsolete conception.

That's not just an assumption. That's an incontrovertible fact.

Your problem is that you're assuming money is a real thing. It's not. It's a shared illusion, an idea that most people share because it's sponsored by society. Magically getting rid of money won't remove the fact that people will still want things that they don't have, which other people will give to them in return for things that they, in turn, don't have.

It's the whole reason that, before money, there was a goddamn barter system.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

we get rid of private property then. i'm proposing a model of society where you have access to everything that is available.

[Aqizzar]

All humans are altruistic.

if communism made that fallacy it wouldn't have spawned so many authoritarian states. you're mistaking us for anarchists

Communist ideology includes this fallacy, by assuming that everybody would work their asses off for the greater good of the whole community.

nope, it doesn't, if communism made that fallacy it wouldn't have spawned so many authoritarian states. you're mistaking us for anarchists

So you're saying Anarchists spawn authoritarian states?  Is that what you're saying?  Because I don't give a shit about labels anyway, but I want to make sure you're saying that Communists don't create Authoritarian states, but Anarchists do.

[Josephus]

we get rid of private property then. i'm proposing a model of society where you have access to everything that is available.

It's very easy to propose things when you haven't thought things through.

How would this even work?

Are you proposing some kind of world government, or will your magical egalitarian state be limited to one country only? Because while it's a fantastic dream, the logistics are mind-boggling.

As has been stated many, many times in this thread and elsewhere on this forum, the reason a true communist state has never before prospered is because the ugly bits of human nature are not compatible with true communism. You want to set up your ideal society, go try ants or something.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

All humans are altruistic.

if communism made that fallacy it wouldn't have spawned so many authoritarian states. you're mistaking us for anarchists

Communist ideology includes this fallacy, by assuming that everybody would work their asses off for the greater good of the whole community.

nope, it doesn't, if communism made that fallacy it wouldn't have spawned so many authoritarian states. you're mistaking us for anarchists

So you're saying Anarchists spawn authoritarian states?  Is that what you're saying?  Because I don't give a shit about labels anyway, but I want to make sure you're saying that Communists don't create Authoritarian states, but Anarchists do.

read that again, my manly friend.

Are you proposing some kind of world government, or will your magical egalitarian state be limited to one country only? Because while it's a fantastic dream, the logistics are mind-boggling.

I'm refuting the absoluteness of the scarcity problem with simple hypothesis.

As has been stated many, many times in this thread and elsewhere on this forum, the reason a true communist state has never before prospered is because the ugly bits of human nature are not compatible with true communism. You want to set up your ideal society, go try ants or something

yeah, human nature is ugly! why do we even bother with democracy? fuck, slaughter us all! we don't deserve to live.

communism is when you take some decisions from individuals with individual interests and give those to a state machine with the public interest in mind. in which system the ugly human nature factors the most?

[Aqizzar]

read that again, my manly friend.

I can reread it as many times as you want me to and it'll say the same thing.  You said, twice, that Anarchists create authoritarian states, and Communists don't.

[Josephus]

As has been stated many, many times in this thread and elsewhere on this forum, the reason a true communist state has never before prospered is because the ugly bits of human nature are not compatible with true communism. You want to set up your ideal society, go try ants or something

yeah, human nature is ugly! why do we even bother with democracy? fuck, slaughter us all! we don't deserve to live.

communism is when you take some decisions from individuals with individual interests and give those to a state machine with the public interest in mind. in which system the ugly human nature factors the most?

The state machine would itself be composed of people with individual interests.

Unless I misread your post, and the state machine is, in fact, some kind of gigantic machine the size of Wisconsin.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

@aqizzar: somebody said, and i quote, "...fallacies of communist thought:All humans are altruistic.", i replied that if communist thought committed that falacy, it wouldn't have spawned authoritarian states. it did spawn authoritarian states, therefore it doesnt commit that falacy: it doesn't believe that all humans are altruistic, it believes that humans need to be forced to be altruistic by the state itself.

better?

The state machine would itself be composed of people with individual interests.

with several conditioning rules to follow, effectively eliminating any personal interest besides the personal interest in benefiting the society as a whole.

Unless I misread your post, and the state machine is, in fact, some kind of gigantic machine the size of Wisconsin.

in a near future possibly.

[Aqizzar]

@aqizzar: somebody said, and i quote, "...fallacies of communist thought:All humans are altruistic.", i replied that if communist thought committed that falacy, it wouldn't have spawned authoritarian states. it did spawn authoritarian states, therefore it doesnt commit that falacy: it doesn't believe that all humans are altruistic, it believes that humans need to be forced to be altruistic by the state itself.

Yes, that is a vastly more sensible thing to say.  The way it was phrased before, it sounded like you were calling Anarchists authoritarian and Communism completely blameless.  Now I understand what you meant, so sorry about that.

I will go on to say that admitting full front that Communism relies on an authoritarian state to force people to be altruistic does not sell me on the idea, but kudos for being straight-forward about it.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

first, i think that again i wasnt clear enough, not all communists are authoritarian, while others are fuckin hippies. Communism itself isn't any of either.

I will go on to say that admitting full front that Communism relies on an authoritarian state to force people to be altruistic does not sell me on the idea, but kudos for being straight-forward about it.

as i said, communism doesnt rely on anything, authoritarian communist states do that. and yes i know that "forcing people to WHATEVER" usually causes a worse impression that "giving the people freedom to WHATEVER", but take a look at these examples:

"forcing people to not be fucking idiots"       "giving the people freedom to be fucking idiots"

every society, but mainly the ones that work, give people rights and obligations, some of them are well justified.

[ChairmanPoo]

I think that adopting an economic model by decree to fulfill an ideological goal is a mistake, irrelevant of said system being central economy socialism, free market capitalism, or anarch-communist communes. The system is a means to an end, not an end in itself. As such, it should be adapted one way or the other depending on the circumstances.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

well, what if the goal is to improve the life quality of everyone? i think there is a place for ideological discussion, but after everybody has their basic needs fulfilled, otherwise it would be like having your dwarves each build a different megaproject(and sabotaging the others) before you even dug out a plump helmet farm. watcha gonna do when the southern swamps run out of fish?

[Aqizzar]

I will go on to say that admitting full front that Communism relies on an authoritarian state to force people to be altruistic does not sell me on the idea, but kudos for being straight-forward about it.

as i said, communism doesnt rely on anything, authoritarian communist states do that.

Ah, okay, even more clear now.  It's clear that any discussion of Communism is inherently mired in differing interpretations and assumptions about the same words.  I think the one at work for most people, certainly in this thread anyway, on the other side of Communism inherently assume that Authoritarian Communism is implied, because an authoritarian state is the one kind that would have a hope of actually making universal material equality and altruism function, and therefore argue against that model.  The idea that sans-authority hippie communes are doomed to failure from the start barely makes mention, because nobody entertains the idea long enough to want to disprove it.

[ChairmanPoo]

Allegedly anarch-communist communes worked fairly well in Catalonia. I dont know to what extent it's true...