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Author Topic: Communists of Bay 12  (Read 22158 times)

Dwarf

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2010, 04:21:44 pm »

I have not used it as an example for a communist country. It's on the way to communism, and already that has done much good to Cuba.
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CJ1145

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #61 on: June 09, 2010, 04:25:44 pm »

Cthulhu, don't get offensive. In Communism, this would not exist.
Also, look at what shit Cuba was in before the revolution.
Dwarf, what would you say if I told you that Communism was already IN Cuba before? And it failed utterly? The country was so damn downtrodden that they had to get at least a third of the funds they needed from the Soviet Union. It was the collapse of their benefactor that forced Castro into reverting into a state with some free market. Saying you're the least poor South American nation is like saying you're the dirtiest man in 12th century England. Everyone there is immensely dirty, save 10 or so people. And they're inbred hicks.
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Jreengus

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #62 on: June 09, 2010, 04:25:49 pm »

How do you get sewage workers in any system? A conversion to communism wouldn't suddenly ensure an abundance of high end jobs for all who want them..
Well currently you pay them enough that it's worth it for them to do the job. Obviously not everyone gets to be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever, but assuming that people will do horribly unpleasant jobs for the love of it is ridiculous. If everyone gets the same pay, then why not be a gardener or a driver, or some other relatively low-end job? You'd be compensated the same, and you don't stink of shit every day.
There are only so many jobs, that's why we have unemployment. What about the people who didn't get jobs as other things? Are they going to sit around on their hands starving to death?
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Nikov

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2010, 04:27:46 pm »

“Most people who read "The Communist Manifesto" probably have no idea that it was written by a couple of young men who had never worked a day in their lives, and who nevertheless spoke boldly in the name of "the workers".” -- Thomas Sowell
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CJ1145

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2010, 04:31:00 pm »

“Most people who read "The Communist Manifesto" probably have no idea that it was written by a couple of young men who had never worked a day in their lives, and who nevertheless spoke boldly in the name of "the workers".” -- Thomas Sowell
So true, Nikov. Also, I have a fun little story for you.

Dwarf, would  you like to know why democracy/republicanism/capitalism is better than communism? I shall tell you.

Here in America, if you had the desire you could go out and preach your message of Communism to whoever would hear it. They may not like it, but can they legally stop you? No. It is your God-given (another reason I dislike communism. You bastards hate Jesus) right to form your own opinions.

BUT if I lived in a Communist country, and wanted to go out and preach the good of capitalism? FUCK THAT, they'd say. I'd be strung up by my innards and paraded through the streets as a capitalist pig. Think about that for a minute.
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Jreengus

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2010, 04:33:39 pm »

Yes because economic theories are of course intrinsically related with issues such as free speech. Dear god, communism has enough real flaws why is it people feel the need to spout complete bull about it rather address the actual problems with it?
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Dwarf

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2010, 04:36:11 pm »

OH GOD WE HATE JESUS WE ARE EVIL


It's not like communists are all stalinists who will kill anyone who talks about religion.
Also, the countries you perceive as communist (which, again, are not) are totalitarian dictatorships*. There's not much freedom of speach there.




*except Cuba
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 04:39:12 pm by Dwarf »
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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2010, 04:38:54 pm »

Jreengus, how can you say that communism is solely an economic theory? Marx's original works were anything but "Hey, here's an idea that will improve our economy." He went on spouting bull about how communism would bring about perfection in humans, bring them to the ultimate level, remove any and all ailments, etc. He basically presented it as a miracle tonic that had the side effect of installing of a brutal, uncaring (but temporary!) dictatorship, with the grim knowledge that your great great great grandchildren might be living the good life. Except the theory rejects God so, sucks to be you. You get nothing from this entire series of events, because you're a lifeless husk 6 feet below ground, unless we burned you during that brutal dictatorship. In which case, you're the dust in my attic.

@Dwarf: Name, please, one supposedly Communist country that did NOT come with a brutal dictatorship that repressed rights.
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Dwarf

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2010, 04:39:35 pm »

Cuba.
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bjlong

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2010, 04:41:03 pm »

bjlong, Cuba may not be an economic power but it's clearly the least poor and most well educated state of South America.
And I said: Undesirable tasks should be shared communally. This also encourages innovations.

And no, the surgeon should not be awarded more.
Doing a job because it's got higher salary is a capitalist syndrome. In Communism, people are doing jobs because they enjoy them.
In Cuba, doctors are not well-paid. They've got a low salary, in fact. Still, Cuba's patients per doctor ratio considerably lower than the USA's, even if they are not well-paid.

I did a bit of research, and it seems that Cuba has had a long history of good health services. In fact, most of its health services were much better before the revolution, save for rural areas. When the revolution rolled around, around half of Cuba's medical staff... exported themselves. While it's still better than America today, the number of health care professionals is declining, as they either find different countries, or want to work in the tourism industry for much better pay (50-60 times more!). This despite the fact that they get 1.5 times the national mean. This is particularly troubling to me, as island nations typically don't have a good industry other than sugar cane and tourism, so sabotaging their medical system for idealistic reasons is somewhat... well, not nearly even close to acceptable.

Also, Cuba's economic successes were fueled in part by donations from the USSR. After its collapse, Cuba had to open up the private sector more. In fact, quite a lot more. And employment in the private sector is growing. Basically, Cuba's following the trend of most communistic countries--failing economies means that it opens up the private sector, but it's not enough, so the country has to open up the private sector a bit more, but it's still not enough...

Despite obvious mockery:

In capitalism, you can work and not have enough to nourish yourselves and support your family. It's not quite as bad in the USA but such behaviour is widespread in other countries. It's essentially a product of capitalism.

(...)  People have been working themselves to death and dying because they don't have enough since there were people to work themselves to death.

Cthulhu.

You forget.

This isn't Communism. It's COMMUNISM!

fenrif, what have I said earlier? Undesirable tasks are split up communally because it is, in your example literally, everybody's shit. And again, somebody ingenious having to do shit work leads to innovations, like self-cleaning toilets.
Also, there are obviously people who enjoy working with the criminally insane, because there are people doing the job.

Sewage systems are incredibly complex. They are, in fact, the number one problem with cities. The growth limiter. The density limiter. And so on. Usually, sewage workers get paid quite well for their services, and work closely with Civil Engineers. Even a small problem needs to be detected immediately and fixed even more immediately. Sewage systems are truly serious business.

I find it interesting that you're talking about self-cleaning and self-maintaining facilities. The reason we haven't come up with these isn't for lack of motivation. They're just incredibly hard to get right. In fact, it's practically impossible, because then you have to maintain the maintaining mechanisms, and then maintain those maintaining mechanisms... etc.

Also. People can work jobs they don't like. I've seen quite a few people doing that in my lifetime.

OH GOD PEOPLE STOP POSTING SO MY OPINION CAN BE HEARD. I MEAN COME ON 11 NEW REPLIES.
THAT'S TOO MANY.
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Nikov

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2010, 04:41:45 pm »

How do you get sewage workers in any system? A conversion to communism wouldn't suddenly ensure an abundance of high end jobs for all who want them..
Well currently you pay them enough that it's worth it for them to do the job. Obviously not everyone gets to be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever, but assuming that people will do horribly unpleasant jobs for the love of it is ridiculous. If everyone gets the same pay, then why not be a gardener or a driver, or some other relatively low-end job? You'd be compensated the same, and you don't stink of shit every day.
There are only so many jobs, that's why we have unemployment. What about the people who didn't get jobs as other things? Are they going to sit around on their hands starving to death?

Enormous fallacy. There are not 'so many jobs'. There is always something you can do for money, be it assemble cars, sweep sidewalks or dig ditches. The reason unemployment exists is because there comes a point where an individual either A. values their time higher than what is offered and refuses or B. cannot be hired because the employer must pay more than what the work is worth.

The reason why there is 10% unemployment is because ten percent believe they deserve at least minimum wage and all employers are legally required to offer minimum wage. So if adding a worker at $8 an hour only adds $6 worth of work at the shop, businesses won't hire another worker.

What they will do instead is send their $6 jobs overseas where a ten year old Thai girl will happily sew buttons onto shirts so her peasant family has some disposable income. People who insist their button-sewing skills are worth $8 an hour then whine and moan about 'outsourcing', when in reality the policies they insisted on to protect their incomes are what got them laid off.

For more information, attend the first hour of any college economics course. My professor hadn't bothered with his name before launching into "If you don't learn anything but what I tell you right now, pay attention for five minutes, sleep through the rest of the lecture and don't show up again until finals."
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CJ1145

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2010, 04:43:10 pm »

Cuba.
You know what, that is hilarious. FUCKING HILARIOUS. I'm not even kidding, that is the funniest damn thing I've seen all day. In fact, congratulations, that shit is going in my sig!
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Jreengus

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2010, 04:45:40 pm »

Communism is a social structure in which classes are abolished and property  is commonly controlled, as well as a political philosophy and social movement that advocates and aims to create such a society.[1]

Taken from the first line on wikipedia, if you want to debate Karl Marx's ideas as one great lump then feel free just have the courtesy to use a name for it that doesn't already mean something else. Communism is not just something Karl Marx dreamt up ideas are refined and changed as time passes and communism doesn't refer to fascist dictatorships even if countries which have been fascist dictatorships have also been communist/called themselves communist.
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Dwarf

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2010, 04:46:43 pm »

Cuba.
You know what, that is hilarious. FUCKING HILARIOUS. I'm not even kidding, that is the funniest damn thing I've seen all day. In fact, congratulations, that shit is going in my sig!

I'm going to point this out:
This
and this website in general.
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CJ1145

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2010, 04:50:32 pm »

*snip*
Yeah, I was reading that first link and got thrown numbers about how a huge percentage of Cuba's children are pro-Communist or something. That shouldn't come as a surprise considering ANY government is going to use propaganda in an attempt to gain the loyalty of the youth. Also, do you know what happened to all the dissenters anyway? THEY LEFT. Castro opened his ports saying that those who were displeased with his rule could go. Hundreds of thousands of people flocked to the docks to leave, where many were arrested as traitors to the government.
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