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Author Topic: Communists of Bay 12  (Read 22249 times)

The Grinning Bandit

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #210 on: June 10, 2010, 09:51:12 pm »

The monarch owning all of Calradia isn't private property, incidentally. It would be private property if Count Klargus had Suno, and Suno was his, and the King didn't really have any say over what he did with it.
Yeah, that's the difference between "private" and "public" property - although both of those terms are incredibly confusing when you get into them, as might appear obvious here.

"Public" doesn't really mean "owned by the the populace", but rather "owned by the government, but given limited access to the populace, with rules and restrictions". With the implication that the government is representative of and embodies its citizens (even when it's some medieval warlord conquering the local villages).

That's the thing that really gets me about authoritarian communists, the fact that (judging by those I've met and what communist theory I've read) they call for things to become public property in the sense that it would all be run by some massive, centralized workers' government.
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Nikov

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #211 on: June 11, 2010, 08:18:47 am »

Name a civilization which...

You know what? You're right. Private property is not required for civilization. All the thousands of years of preceeding human history teach us nothing, and the ideas of a thirty year old coffee shop Bohemian will change the world if we just hold hands and believe.

Private property is a fairly new development. If it's owned by your monarch, and he decrees that your local nobleman gets some land, then it's not really private property. Unless your entire kingdom is a piece of private property.

I respectfully disagree. A feudal kingdom was more like a real estate pyramid scheme than anything else.

The person of the King owned the kingdom. He 'leased' large areas of lands to nobles through the system of vassalage who paid rents and tithes up, usually in the form of military service. These nobles sub-leased smaller amounts of land down to the level of knights, which were incidentally receiving just enough land for one person to personally manage effectively. These knights leased their land down to the people who actually worked it, who keep whatever is in excess of their rents.

This is akin to the bank lending money to my father who pays the mortgage on the farms which he's bought and then rents to the farmers who actually work it. The farmers pay rent and keep whatever they make exceeding the rent. He makes a tidy profit as the middle man by taking on risk for the investment. The bank makes a profit earning interest paid. The bank owns the farm, but never touches it, just as a king owns the fields, but never sets foot on it. Through capitalism, landless farmers aquire land to work, a man who amassed some decent money through his professional career is now set to retire on his investment, and the bank would be making money had it not been stupidly pushed into the high-risk housing market by the Fed.

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Communism, however, has no sense of private property. The land is just there. Who farms it? Whoever wants to. What do they get in return? Their rationed eggs, milk and flour. What if they work harder, increase yields, and produce a great surplus of food for the village? They get their rationed eggs, milk and flour, are called good communists, and the surplus goes to the city. What if they farm poorly, crops wither, and there's a shortage of food? Rationed eggs, milk and flour.

The bank picks the best person to give capital to, the capitalist picks the best tenants to rent, and the tenants put their backs into it, knowing their best efforts reap the best rewards for themselves. The state gives the capital to everyone, the commune director asks for volunteers, and whoever feels like farming does so knowing hard work isn't rewarded beyond a pat on the back. That is why communism fails.
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Nilocy

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #212 on: June 11, 2010, 09:14:31 am »

Communism is a pretty much destined to fail because of the one fact that your still using money right now.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #213 on: June 11, 2010, 06:44:26 pm »

I have always wondered who came up with the idea that a human will work hard even if he gets exactly the same thing in return.
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Realmfighter

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #214 on: June 11, 2010, 06:45:59 pm »

An optimist?
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #215 on: June 11, 2010, 06:50:25 pm »

And an idiot, really.
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Realmfighter

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #216 on: June 11, 2010, 06:51:27 pm »

Thats what i said.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #217 on: June 11, 2010, 07:06:04 pm »

Not all optimists are idiots, nor are all idiots optimists.

I thought about it but it really doesn't work since I'm an optimis- oh wait.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #218 on: June 11, 2010, 08:43:01 pm »

I have always wondered who came up with the idea that a human will work hard even if he gets exactly the same thing in return.
Jesus Christ, I believe.
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nenjin

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #219 on: June 11, 2010, 08:59:56 pm »

I'm pretty sure we could go farther back than that if we tried. :P
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Josephus

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #220 on: June 11, 2010, 09:06:12 pm »

I have always wondered who came up with the idea that a human will work hard even if he gets exactly the same thing in return.
Jesus Christ, I believe.

No, he was all "A human should work hard even if you get nothing at all in return".
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #221 on: June 11, 2010, 09:28:14 pm »

And he sure as hell didn't come up with the idea, he was just the most famous person to support it.

Although I'm not sure that's true. His shtick was if you worked harder, you got into Heaven, which to many people is the mother of all incentives.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #222 on: June 11, 2010, 09:35:26 pm »

I have always wondered who came up with the idea that a human will work hard even if he gets exactly the same thing in return.
Jesus Christ, I believe.

No, he was all "A human should work hard even if you get nothing at all in return".
No, "Sell all your possessions" and that jazz.  Really, he was advocating some form of socialism...

Although I'm not sure that's true. His shtick was if you worked harder, you got into Heaven, which to many people is the mother of all incentives.
Socialism on earth, and you shall receive your capitalism in heaven!
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #223 on: June 11, 2010, 09:37:15 pm »

I'm not sure, what would Heaven be? I doubt anyone would work there.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Communists of Bay 12
« Reply #224 on: June 11, 2010, 09:43:31 pm »

I have always wondered who came up with the idea that a human will work hard even if he gets exactly the same thing in return.
Jesus Christ, I believe.

No, he was all "A human should work hard even if you get nothing at all in return".
No, "Sell all your possessions" and that jazz.  Really, he was advocating some form of socialism...

Although I'm not sure that's true. His shtick was if you worked harder, you got into Heaven, which to many people is the mother of all incentives.
Socialism on earth, and you shall receive your capitalism in heaven!

No, no, no.  Jesus wasn't telling everyone that you should all sell everything.  It was more a "If something (like wealth, in the case of the rich young man) gets in the way of following Jesus, get rid of it."

At least that's how I remember it.
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