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[Dwarf]

True Communism abolishes government.

[Solifuge]

People like to spout Anti-Communist rhetoric, which we've heard from and rehearsed with others. "It's great but it would never work in the real world." or "It invariably becomes corrupt." and so on. Neat little prepackaged ideas we can use whenever silly commies pop up.

In all seriousness, though, it is no less feasable than other forms of social governance. The strength of Capitalism is that it generates competition, and betterment of the few by weakening all but the best.. and as a result, the masses can share the creations of these "best". It's a very Darwinian system... however, it also results in the culture putting all its eggs in few baskets, so to speak. The majority of wealth pools in small places, like businesses and old-money families. These vast pools of money are spent on frivolous things like overpriced cars or well-tailored suits, personal jets, multiple houses, and so on... while leaving the working-class serfs to spend small ammounts of money on things which are most important to culture and society. It's an extremely competative and topheavy system, and embraces unfairness and taking financial advantage of others as a core tennant. People are encouraged to fight with one another, scrambling to be financially on top of their peers.

When we consider Communism, many of us are considering it from a standpoint of Capitalism: we see the people and the life-goals our system creates in its citizens, and we don't see how they could exist within a system which promoted unilateral cooperation, trust, and equality. However, that's what laws are for. They're like the Training Wheels someone uses when learning to ride a bike. They keep you upright, and allow you to move forward, but you are never really riding a bike at its full potential, nor are you staying upright on your own right. It takes time to realize the things you need to do in order to stay up, and to face the fear of falling down that exists in everyone. For governments, when you've learned these things, the "Training Wheels" of Law can be removed, because people realize the benefits inherint in working together as the Law dictates, pooling strength towards a common goal, and so on.

If China would get over some of their frightening policies on truth, freedom, and dogmatic nationhood, I suspect they'd be an incredibly attractive country to live in. The government is able to summon huge ammounts of resources to direct them towards things that people need, like infrastructure, high-speed trains, etc... rather than providing bait and incentives to try to convince their people to do things, as the US Government is stuck doing.

Meh, think I've rambled here, but suffice it to say that the Communist system in general is no less feasable than anything else. It is merely a different set of Laws, with a different set of challenges, with benefits unique to it. You have to be cautious about approaching it from a foriegn mindset, and try to understand it for what it is... and try not to get too caught up in rhetoric while so doing.

[Aqizzar]

Yeah, because y'know completely unfounded pie-in-the-sky pro-Communist rhetoric isn't rhetoric at all.

I'm not even going to bother going any deeper into this one, because it'll probably be a shitstorm before too long.  But my opinion on any form of economic system, or government for that matter is the same - they all suck for someone, they all change over time, and they all eventually collapse and restructure.  It's more a question of how much effort you can squeeze out of the people you're governing, which differs between times and places.

More importantly, don't get your notion of which system is betar wrapped up in the problems of any alternative.  You're all already going for the almost sport-like mentality of throwing around wild alterations of history in a complete vacuum.

[Dwarf]

You make good points, Solifuge.
But again, China is not a communist nation, it's state capitalistic and totalitarian (totalitarian is completely against the ideas of true Communism).

But I could imagine China being a proper communist nation. They have the means to actually improve the country, and, although it may seem otherwise, they are actually doing that. Atleast, they could become pre-communist, ready to support and join a more general turn of tides (Because, as I said, a single Communist country is worthless, except if it is vast and resource rich as the USSR)

[Dwarf]

Yeah, because y'know completely unfounded pie-in-the-sky pro-Communist rhetoric isn't rhetoric at all.

I'm not even going to bother going any deeper into this one, because it'll probably be a shitstorm before too long.  But my opinion on any form of economic system, or government for that matter is the same - they all suck for someone, they all change over time, and they all eventually collapse and restructure.  It's more a question of how much effort you can squeeze out of the people you're governing, which differs between times and places.

More importantly, don't get your notion of which system is betar wrapped up in the problems of any alternative.  You're all already going for the almost sport-like mentality of throwing around wild alterations of history in a complete vacuum.

Communism does not suck for anyone, that is the whole point of it! Equality is the core idea of Communism. Who would it suck for?

[Aqizzar]

Who could it suck for?  Anyone who wants more stuff that someone else, anyone who's mentally unhinged, anyone who doesn't like someone else, and the inevitable multitudes of people who get shafted by systematic inefficiency.

Alright, screw it, I'll get involved.  "True Communism", whatever the fuck that's supposed to be, requires a massive government infrastructure, or a hive mind, to enforce it and keep it running smoothly for any group of people larger than a wholly interpersonal community.  You can keep saying that total communitarian equality doesn't need a government to enforce it, and you'll be just plain wrong.  Even tribal communities, the closest anybody on Earth has ever come to "True Communism" require both a near-religious adherence to the spirit of that community and a rigid caste system, enforced by social pressure and a warrior elite.

We are humans, that's why we make governments.  Because no matter how great or small your opinion of people, any group of people, eventually somebody is going to fuck it up, and you'll need a way to recorrect.

[Solifuge]

I'd have to second Aqizzar there. A working Communism to me seems like it would require a form of Totalitarianism to function. You can't enforce a unilateral mindset of cooperation and equaity without some outside force "keeping" people equal, and redistributing resources, services, and capital as necessary.

There are certainly new and exciting ways to handle this Oversight Role, be it trhough randomly elected citizens who perfom the duty in the short term, to a true Democracy that directly made decisions for their nation as a whole, with the legislative body merely collecting and tallying the will of the people, or whatever... but someone or something has to do it.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

In your optimism, you forget that communism requires insight by all members. Only if it is voluntarily supported will it be true communism and in that actually be the most efficient system (after all, everyone does not only receive what they need, but also contribute as much as they can). If you rely on a system of oppression to enforce a pseudo-communism, you can't guarantee that people will voluntarily do their best (how do you prove they do their best?) and thus, you have a good chance of losing productivity (since everyone's needs are provided for, there is not the pressure you have in the raw capitalist system to work or starve). And by introducing an oppressive system - which is NOT what Marx had in mind, quite correctly - you basically have a guaranteed to set up a tyrant who abuses the system - and since people do not understand the value of communism or its true nature, they are likely to accept that it is no longer a system without bias but rather something based on the whim of the tyrant. After all, oppression is oppression for those who do not see a benefit in the system.

And greed is indeed inherent as a left-over from the need for survival. Actually, animals will eat as much as they can. Over the ages, things have balanced out that it works, but for humans, there are no counter-balances. We are able to over-produce easily and there is no mechanism to prevent us from desiring that over-produce. The positive stimulus lies in obtaining things, not in fulfilling an abstract amount of necessity. This is the reason why we either need oppression or genuine insight to stop greed - or a system that channels greed as its fuel - which is what raw capitalism does.

Deathworks

[Dwarf]

Wanting more than somebody else when you can live happily, well nourished etc. is greed. Read above.

Define "mentally unhinged"

Why would somebody not like someone else?
Today, this is mainly due to racism, homophobia etc.
In Communism, there would be no reason at all to hate someone else because he's got a different skin colour or other irrelevant matters.
Nowadays, people are disliking or even hating foreigners because, in some places, they 'steal' work places, or due to them being welfare check receivers, or simply because these people feel that foreigners are destroying or defiling their cultural heritage or even racial purity.
Now while it is true immigrants could, for instance, learn the language of the country they're emmigrating to, it is a trend (I can observe that perfectly here in Switzerland) to dislike immigrants before they've even lived here for a week. They're just hated upfront, because people are filled with prejudice - leading to frustrated foreigners that are, of course, all inherently "lazy slobs living off our back just wanting to exploit us"!
Instead, you could also trace the problem to its roots.

Define systematic inefficiency.

True Communism is, well, what it's supposed to be. People often think that Russia or China are/were communist nations. They're not. It's a term used to differentiate.
And again, people are using the "it just doesn't work" approach. It does not need to be enforced, because in a proper communist society, the longing of possessing more than somebody else has been abolished, the desire of having more is a product of inequality. All you produce is going into a communal, distributed pool where everybody is free to take whatever he needs, because taking more than that is wrong and people 'stealing' are not tolerated.

And, now, explain to me why tribal communities require near-religious adherence. It's a fact that stone age tribes lived in a pretty much communist way - what you hunt goes to the pool, what you gather goes to the pool, take what you need from the pool, take more and you'll be persecuted.


Deathworks - This is why communism requires extensive education. The people need to be teached Communism until it's in the people's minds.

[Diablous]

Deathworks - This is why communism requires extensive education. The people need to be teached Communism until it's in the people's minds.

Am I the only one who thinks that sounds kinda 1984-ish?

[Solifuge]

Interestingly enough, "True Communism" as referred to here has all the trappings of Religious Philosophy, or a Spirituality. It's more a state of mind, and an ideal or goal than it is a system.

In that, it's very like a Theocracy, in that you run a society based on a set of beliefs... laws which you assume everyone will hold themselves to, but without the authority of an assumed God.

[bjlong]

-snip-

I agree with most of what you're saying here, but I'm going to further point out that "insight" doesn't even begin to cover what everyone would need to understand the workings of society. They'd need a full understanding of economics, governmental histories and systems, a rigorous education in law and ethics, including penal codes and so forth. They would all need to be able to completely understand how what they do fits into the whole community, using political educations that would put many analysts to shame.

And then, they can start training for their jobs as janitors.

Alternatively, propaganda the little kids to death, like they did in the USSR. That turned out great. Oh, wait.

Wanting more than somebody else when you can live happily, well nourished etc. is greed. Read above.

You're claiming that Lions don't want more than they need, above. But that's pretty wrong. Wild animals will often eat themselves incredibly fat if at all possible. But Communism somehow changes this?

Why would somebody not like someone else?
Today, this is mainly due to racism, homophobia etc.
In Communism, there would be no reason at all to hate someone else because he's got a different skin colour or other irrelevant matters.

Hold on, now. So Communism gets rid of all irrational anger? Wow, learn something every day.

Nowadays, people are disliking or even hating foreigners because, in some places, they 'steal' work places, or due to them being welfare check receivers, or simply because these people feel that foreigners are destroying or defiling their cultural heritage or even racial purity.
Now while it is true immigrants could, for instance, learn the language of the country they're emmigrating to, it is a trend (I can observe that perfectly here in Switzerland) to dislike immigrants before they've even lived here for a week. They're just hated upfront, because people are filled with prejudice - leading to frustrated foreigners that are, of course, all inherently "lazy slobs living off our back just wanting to exploit us"!
Instead, you could also trace the problem to its roots.

So... what now? People from two different cultures clash. And Communism gets rid of this? It occurs to me that this can't be regular Communism, but some kind of super-Communism that I will henceforth call COMMUNISM!. Thank you, COMMUNISM!! I have seen the light!

True Communism is, well, what it's supposed to be. People often think that Russia or China are/were communist nations. They're not. It's a term used to differentiate.
And again, people are using the "it just doesn't work" approach. It does not need to be enforced, because in a proper communist society, the longing of possessing more than somebody else has been abolished, the desire of having more is a product of inequality. All you produce is going into a communal, distributed pool where everybody is free to take whatever he needs, because taking more than that is wrong and people 'stealing' are not tolerated.

So Communism is Communism. Non-communism is Non-communism. It doesn't have to be enforced because desire is gone. (because of COMMUNISM!) If someone does do something against the commune, then the commune kicks them out. Or punishes them. Or something. (But that's not a police action or enforced Communism because this is COMMUNISM!)

And, now, explain to me why tribal communities require near-religious adherence. It's a fact that stone age tribes lived in a pretty much communist way - what you hunt goes to the pool, what you gather goes to the pool, take what you need from the pool, take more and you'll be persecuted.

I saw no explanation of how that was an idyllic Communist society. The previous post was pointing out that the religious community made such communistic tendencies possible because it effectively made acting against the commune an unspeakable horror, to be dealt with via exile or execution or maybe some other ex- word. True Communism, as you pointed out, does not need such dogmatic adherence, or any sort of enforcement. So--oh, wait. I know. The explaination was COMMUNISM!

Spoiler: My Point, sarcasm removed. (click to show/hide)

You're saying that Communism gets rid of all bad things. How? Why? Racism is kinda a problem that's been ongoing for centuries, and we've tried to get rid of it for probably centuries--my political history in that regard goes back only like two centuries. So suddenly we've got Communists running things, and racism just disappears, according to what I read here. Same thing for Greed, etc.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Communism as described by Marx is based on insight and voluntary participation. I don't see how you can get such voluntary contribution if people do not really understand how their contribution indirectly benefits themselves in the end. If people naturally understand that, it will work. If they don't, it will never work as any indoctrination is just another form of oppression, thus indeed leading to 1984.

I think that the impression of it being a philosophy/religion is basically because we are focusing on the one weakness in the system. Everything else, like productivity, wealth, health, and stability are not a problem in true communism - but the requirement of self-awareness among the masses is the one biggest hurdle where I think that this ideal fails.

Mind you, I am not opposed to communism as an idea and I think it would be really great if we lived in a true communist world, but I am too cynical to hope for the necessary insight within humanity.

Deathworks

EDIT: Bjlong: (You posted while I was typing, you rascal :) :) :) ) Just a short comment concerning the end of your post (the spoiler):

Actually, you are saying the same thing as I am saying, just the other way around - the insight I see as the prerequisite for true communism to work is basically the same insight that would stop all that insanity of racism and greed. And given how much success humanity has had in fighting those ills, I don't see communism becoming reality with the humans we have.

[Armok]

True Communism as said is the ideal, but it's in conflict with human nature. You can however do post sacricity economy which is almost the same thing:
99% contribute nothing and take what they need, and the 1% of highly educated altruists make the open-source software that controls the machines that do all the actual work,.

[Dwarf]

@Armok There's no proof that it is against human nature, as stated before.

@bjlong Why do you think everybody's a janitor in Communism? Education is indeed very important in Communism. However, everybody gets the same 'wage'. It's just that nobody chooses a job for the money - but because he wants to do it. This also ensures to some degree that people are not slacking off. They're enjoying their jobs.