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[Deathworks]

Hi!

He now has api whether he likes it or not (dfhack) ... and even if he is not maintainer, pressure not to break it is, imho, there.

If that is the case, then what do you want from him? There is already an API according to your statement, so why should Toady One go to the trouble of creating one himself?

And since it is not officially supported, the pressure not to break it is probably not there or at least significantly smaller then when he has created it himself.

Deathworks

[ASnogarD]

I read quiet a bit of this topic, and got to admit to being a bit dissapointed with a few of the silly fan boyish reactions, theres no need to sooth Toadys feelings and no need to rush to his defence... allow Impaler to hoist himself on his own pitard and let it end at that.

DF has long gone from small simple program released by a unknown to a program having a large following, any clone will always be peeking from out the shadow of the orginal... even the mighty Diablo is still considered a Rogue-like, any clone of DF will be just that... a copy cat of DF, and each time DF releases a new version all those playing the clone will swap back to the original... after all it has the original ideas.

To me DF is a inspiration when I am struggling to stuff C++ variable types, pointers and array notations into my stubborn skull... even if I rarely do play the game (game itself is a time thief, plan to play a hour and wonder why I am suddenly so tired and I cant account for the loss of a few hours).

[Kilo24]

G-Flex's concerns a while back were well-stated, and I agree with them.

I do think there is a risk that a team-led effort can make more progress than Toady once they surpass the head start, but it'd involve finding several very dedicated people like Toady who also get along well with each-other (rather difficult.)  And more than likely, people of that dedication wouldn't be content to just replicate what he's done/what his project goals are.  They'd want to do something more original, I'd think.

Inaction is a large danger for Toady.  If he's too inactive, people will be not as willing to donate or stay in the community.  That being said, he's still doing an excellent job at this point of focusing on the task and also making people aware he's doing so.  There will always be people who don't agree with the current course of action (and a few who are real jerks about it, like Impaler).

Adding to that:
Fifthly, Toady inspires. Toady inspired me to start programming again. If one man can create something like DF, give it away for free, and still make a living out of donations, I should at least be able to make something that approaches 0.1% of its awesomeness. Toady even inspired impaler, apparently.

Heh.  I've been inspired by him to program an independent project too, actually.  I'm currently coding and designing a tactical strategy game with "Grand Designs" (tm) that's currently fully playable on tabletop to eventually be released for free online.  It's because of seeing a project like DF get out of a coder's head and make serious progress - I'd have strongly doubted that he'd have gotten this far in it (especially after a year of no releases with gameplay effects), but he has.

[ggeezz]

I noted Torchlight before.  It was made by 14 people over 11 months.  They had no publisher backing them, just money they had made themselves from previous successes.

Imagine a handful of talented developers who've made enough money to support themselves for a while, have seen DF, think they can do better and capitalize on it.  It's not that far-fetched.

Torchlight developers were very experienced people used to working together: They worked on Diablo 1/2 previously and were basically ripping of themselves. They basically had ideal conditions for pulling off this kind of project.

That's true.  I'm just saying there's more talent now and the tools are better than they've ever been.  Steam and other platforms have made independent publishing easier than ever before.  And there are more people coming off success and looking for their next thing.

[jonask84]

Oh my, this was a disappointing surprise.

I'm sorry to see peterix got mixed up in this. I've worked with the man extensively, and in my opinion, while not only being continuously friendly, helpful and in every way a great forum member, he has also been one of the single largest assets of the DF community.

I know without a doubt that me and my team could have never made Stonesense without him.

And while I have no doubt this issue will be sorted out, I fear his posts will be sorely missed.

[Footkerchief]

Oh my, this was a disappointing surprise.

I'm sorry to see peterix got mixed up in this. I've worked with the man extensively, and in my opinion, while not only being continuously friendly, helpful and in every way a great forum member, he has also been one of the single largest assets of the DF community.

I know without a doubt that me and my team could have never made Stonesense without him.

And while I have no doubt this issue will be sorted out, I fear his posts will be sorely missed.

Toady unbanned him like 4 hours later, so it's all good.

[jonask84]

later, after two hours of reading

Toady unbanned him like 4 hours later, so it's all good.

I'd like to apologize to peterix.

I'm really glad to see this, Toady. peterix is a stand-up guy and a great asset to this community. I hope there are no hard feelings on either side


Now, someone mentioned Impaler's statement about not donating to DF, and the issue was raised about donations for visualizers or utilities.
I find this topic a bit uncomfortable and so please let me make sure there is no doubt as to the Stonesense team's position on the subject:

Spoiler: statment (click to show/hide)

We have never, nor will we ever, ask for donations.
Stonesense (and dfHack) is made by the community, and that is your donation.
This will remain so for as long as I have anything to say on the matter.

Now consider this:
Toady runs Bay12 games for a living, and the man is even humble enough not to ask us for the very donations that puts his bread on the table.
And how many hours have we poured into this game? Personally, I can say it's entertained me way more than blockbuster titles going for 40 or even 60€.
In this industry, who is more deserving than Bay12?

Of course, if you really want to help Stonesense out; maybe draw us a mountain goat? 

[Zurai]

I noted Torchlight before.  It was made by 14 people over 11 months.  They had no publisher backing them, just money they had made themselves from previous successes.

Imagine a handful of talented developers who've made enough money to support themselves for a while, have seen DF, think they can do better and capitalize on it.  It's not that far-fetched.

Torchlight is ...... considerably less complex than DF. By a very large factor.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Huh, just read through most of this topic.

I'm moderately surprised, but I've been in and out of the forums. I remember a lot of snark in certain threads though that I was impressed Toady let stay up. Ah well.

Glad there's no really bad feelings between Toady and the DFhack guys. I think it all concluded for the best.

[ShadeJS]

Besides, encouraging third party tools also invites desires by people - via the tools they may come to make demands and try to pressure him via the tools' creators. Thus, I really see the danger of him losing his freedom.

My point is not that an API isn't a threat to his freedom.  It is.  My point is that not having an API is a threat too.  People tend to focus on the risks stemming from action and ignore the risks stemming from inaction.  But sometimes the latter risks are greater.

As far as third party tools go, they're already here.  Some pressure from third party tools will exist with or without an API.  With an API, the users focus ends up on Toady.  Without an API the focus is (mostly) on the tool's creator.  But with an API there should be less problems to focus on.  There are two sides to the issue; pros and cons.

Well, the other thing about having an API is that at a certain point DF does get 'good enough' for nearly everybody and the maintainers of the memory hacking utilities 'go away'. With an API those tools live in perpetuity.

[spokehedz]

One thing:
Khazad as of now is hardly a clone of anything. It's meant to be a game *inspired* by DF's Fortress Mode.

"Inspired" can mean a few things.

Take a look at this file. Anything look familiar to you? Almost all of it should, because it's not just "inspired" by DF, it appears to be a damn near exact re-implementation of it, with a few changes where Impaler feels he wants them. This isn't just "inspired by" DF, it's looking to be a clone in every sense of the word.

He's not just taking DF as inspiration, he's taking it as his sole inspiration (for the most part). He's trying to make DF, but better. This is clear from the above feature/goal list.

Here is the problem: Unless you actually steal something directly (he did, I know) you can remake just about anything you want so long as you don't use things that are able to have a copyright applied to.

Can I make a game where I run and jump as an Italian plumber, who eats mushrooms and stomps on turtles? YES.

Can I call him Mario, and make the mushrooms red and brown, and the turtles have wings and yellow faces? NO.

There are limits, and there are rules to copyright. You can be inspired by DF enough to make your own--from scratch--and short of calling it Dwarf Fortress, and using the same data files... there really isn't that much one can do. There are no 'graphics' to speak of, so Toady wouldn't be able to claim copyright on that... but what i see is that he wants it to be full 3D anyway, so that is kind of a moot point anyway.

even if you brought the full force of the DCMA down upon him, all anybody would have to do is wipe everything clean, and start building from scratch and never use any data from DF and he would be *technically* allowed to do so.

it is still however, a completely and utterly absurd idea to attempt to make a game as deep and as complex as DF by starting with what the walls and doors look like... kind of like picking up a screw and some metal and saying you are going to make a motorcycle that looks like a BMW.

I am not advocating theft, I am simply stating that anybody could pick up and make a text-based game that feels a lot like DF without it actually containing one bit of code from DF and it would be allowed under copyright. see the "Microsoft vs. Linux" fights if you want more examples of this.

[G-Flex]

I'm not saying that we he's doing is strictly illegal, just that it's an obvious ripoff of Dwarf Fortress. It's hardly just that he's inspired by it or trying to make a similar game; he's thinking in Dwarf Fortress terms entirely. He's trying to make what amounts to his own version of this game.

The responsible way to make a game inspired by another game is to think "Why do I like this? What makes it work and what doesn't? What is it trying to achieve?" and then trying to draw your own conclusions based on the answers. He's doing it backwards, taking the specific conclusions assumptions that Dwarf Fortress is founded on, and applying them to his own game almost without question. He isn't trying to make something similar, he's using it as a working foundation. He's not designing the game based on his own decisions, he's taking a pre-existing game (or at least the segments he wants to recreate, namely Fortress Mode) and applying a bit of tweaking.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I do not really see a risk for Toady One by inactivity there: He is doing his project at his pace, and since he is the sole programmer (okay, now with support by Baughn) he has no special responsibilities or other things to take into account. And if third-party tools don't live up to the expectations of their users, that is really none of his worries - he has never encouraged those tools, and thus everyone is using them at their own risk.

You don't see a risk?  This topic exists because someone was so frustrated by the lack of both a good interface and an API that they're creating a clone.  It's much more than a risk at this point.

Anyone with enough intelligence to  have even the slightest chance of cloning DF over UI problems is far more likely to simply write a UI app (see: Dwarf Therapist).

Personally, I've gotten to the point where I need secondary applications -- specifically, Dwarf Therapist and Quickfort -- to play the game the way I want to play it and still have fun. If nothing else, it's too much of a pain to hand-designate the same fort plan the 5,000th time or remember which of my 200 dwarves have Wood Burning skill turned on. I don't think Toady really needs to do much more here, and I'm not sure it really matters if he does or not -- people are going to be playing DF through third-party UI mods *anyway*, regardless. I know I'm eagerly awaiting the first military-management mod.

[AtomicPaperclip]

I think this thread has served it's purpose.

[MrWiggles]

I do not really see a risk for Toady One by inactivity there: He is doing his project at his pace, and since he is the sole programmer (okay, now with support by Baughn) he has no special responsibilities or other things to take into account. And if third-party tools don't live up to the expectations of their users, that is really none of his worries - he has never encouraged those tools, and thus everyone is using them at their own risk.

You don't see a risk?  This topic exists because someone was so frustrated by the lack of both a good interface and an API that they're creating a clone.  It's much more than a risk at this point.

Anyone with enough intelligence to  have even the slightest chance of cloning DF over UI problems is far more likely to simply write a UI app (see: Dwarf Therapist).

Personally, I've gotten to the point where I need secondary applications -- specifically, Dwarf Therapist and Quickfort -- to play the game the way I want to play it and still have fun. If nothing else, it's too much of a pain to hand-designate the same fort plan the 5,000th time or remember which of my 200 dwarves have Wood Burning skill turned on. I don't think Toady really needs to do much more here, and I'm not sure it really matters if he does or not -- people are going to be playing DF through third-party UI mods *anyway*, regardless. I know I'm eagerly awaiting the first military-management mod.

You play with the same fort design?