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[Aklyon]

There is something that will give other projects a massive advantage over DF: They don't have to worry much about the underlying simulation. Material characteristics and interactions, realistic body structures, and practically everything that Toady spent the last year doing is not presented to the player in any significant way, and therefore might as well not exist.
Imagine how much of combat they could replace with a hidden HP meter, and a wounds screen that has a certain chance of removing a limb on a critical hit. Most people wouldn't notice the difference.

Not to mention they could hard-code all the improvements that Toady is trying to lovingly coax out of the simulation. Heck, hard-coding animal-husbandry alone would give them an excellent selling point. After all, you can't even milk cows in DF amirite?

you can milk a bunch of animals, but if they're caged anywhere not close to the farmer's workshop, you'll end up with two dwarves trying to pull the animal in opposite directions (the milker towards the workshop + bucket, the other towards the cage)

[G-Flex]

There is something that will give other projects a massive advantage over DF: They don't have to worry much about the underlying simulation. Material characteristics and interactions, realistic body structures, and practically everything that Toady spent the last year doing is not presented to the player in any significant way, and therefore might as well not exist.
Imagine how much of combat they could replace with a hidden HP meter, and a wounds screen that has a certain chance of removing a limb on a critical hit. Most people wouldn't notice the difference.

I would. Most people who actually care about the game would. In fact, that's almost how the system used to work, and a cursory examination of combat now shows the difference. In fact, I'd say that most people (not even just most DF players) would notice the difference, and this will become more important and consequential as things like disease, infection, effects of wounds, etc. come into play more.

Not to mention they could hard-code all the improvements that Toady is trying to lovingly coax out of the simulation. Heck, hard-coding animal-husbandry alone would give them an excellent selling point. After all, you can't even milk cows in DF amirite?

Yes, you can.

However, attempting to "hardcode" every single potential result a simulation could provide is futile to the point that you're an idiot for even trying. Yes, you could more easily get certain behaviors in, but you lose all the subtlety, as well as anything unexpected, and there's no way you can account for every situation. If you do account for every situation, then you have created a simulation, except you've probably gone about it in the most backwards way possible.

[Sir Finkus]

There is something that will give other projects a massive advantage over DF: They don't have to worry much about the underlying simulation. Material characteristics and interactions, realistic body structures, and practically everything that Toady spent the last year doing is not presented to the player in any significant way, and therefore might as well not exist.
Imagine how much of combat they could replace with a hidden HP meter, and a wounds screen that has a certain chance of removing a limb on a critical hit. Most people wouldn't notice the difference.

Not to mention they could hard-code all the improvements that Toady is trying to lovingly coax out of the simulation. Heck, hard-coding animal-husbandry alone would give them an excellent selling point. After all, you can't even milk cows in DF amirite?

But a lot of those things a player never really sees are what makes df so unique.  You also have to keep in mind that a lot of the stuff that seems unimportant now is going to be fleshed out later. 

[DalGren]

Uhm, interesting topic...started out fairly confusing though.

So, well, Khazad...I don't think it's that difficult to make a clone of DF, since Toady did the difficult work already (putting things together and planning them to work as we know). So it could reach playable state within one or two years, less if having help. (As a coder myself, the hardest part is not the actual coding but the implementation of ideas in sane ways). With those ideas on the design board from the start, nothing stops Impaler from making a superior product with a better interface and ironing out DF's most obvious flaws.

However, what's with Impaler and that attitude of his? As someone else pointed out, if you like something, why badmouthing it at the same time? It's a concept so contradictory that I can't really understand the motives behind it.
Instead of paying loving homage to the game he should like...it kind of feels like a coldhearted shovelware bootleg cash-in. A game made without love is not worth playing as history can tell*. And DF has plenty of love included in the package. It's a game that shows the developer had fun making it, and we have fun with it because of that, despite the clumsy interface and the bugs.
Khazad won't bother anyone on its own, other than cause drama and fail.

And I am not saying that because Impaler behaved wrongly. His motives seem to not be the adequate ones to produce something like that in the right way. It doesn't even bring something meaningful/new to the table about design.

*Look back to the early 90's and the massive amount of cloned arcade/console space shooters. You can easily tell apart those made with "love" from those without. Wii/iPhone shovelware is a more modern example.

[Sir Finkus]

Uhm, interesting topic...started out fairly confusing though.

So, well, Khazad...I don't think it's that difficult to make a clone of DF, since Toady did the difficult work already (putting things together and planning them to work as we know). So it could reach playable state within one or two years, less if having help. (As a coder myself, the hardest part is not the actual coding but the implementation of ideas in sane ways). With those ideas on the design board from the start, nothing stops Impaler from making a superior product with a better interface and ironing out DF's most obvious flaws.

Unless I'm mistaken, all he has right now are a few ui mockups and the renderer.  If I had a dime for every game that I'd gotten to that point, I'd be a rich man.  Making a dwarf fortress clone would require a level of dedication that most people don't really have.  I'm not even sure if the motivation is there, considering that the rather small target audience doesn't seem all that pleased with out how this project is being run. 

[DalGren]

Unless I'm mistaken, all he has right now are a few ui mockups and the renderer.  If I had a dime for every game that I'd gotten to that point, I'd be a rich man.  Making a dwarf fortress clone would require a level of dedication that most people don't really have.  I'm not even sure if the motivation is there, considering that the rather small target audience doesn't seem all that pleased with out how this project is being run.

You don't need much more than that because it's mostly in-game logic after that point, and Toady did the heavy work in there, as the goal is pretty much copying his work, from what I understand. Toady obviously had to deal with changes in design, implementing external ideas (suggestions)...basically what consumes most time other than bugfixing and playtesting. If Toady could travel to the future and just play DF once as it is now (not even needing to take sources or other data than just gameplay), we'd be facing a much more complete game right now.

That said, I agree that this probably won't end up anywhere. Fat chance of having no "love" (which is largely the motivation of creating a great product just because you love working on it. That also brings inspiration and willingness to improve/do it better). As well, even if it were to reach DF status, if no new ideas are thrown in, it will stagnate or at best run behind DF in terms of implementation.

And the target audience is a good point. The way he started his product is a really bad PR move, and the internets never forgive, never forget. If some lovable n00b opens a thread about Khazad like "whoa cool, a DF clone check it out", people will make sure to remind of the drama.

[Funk]

look at his plan,it is less than DF as it is now.

"No unique personality or querks. "
"Not differentiated by proffession, clothing etc."

[Diablous]

look at his plan,it is less than DF as it is now.

"No unique personality or querks. "
"Not differentiated by proffession, clothing etc."

That kinda strikes me as lazy and boring.

[DalGren]

*facepalm* He missed the point entirely.

[G-Flex]

look at his plan,it is less than DF as it is now.

"No unique personality or querks. "
"Not differentiated by proffession, clothing etc."

You read something very, very wrong. That's under the list of features that aren't necessary, but may be added. You make it sound like he's explicitly never adding them.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i sincerelly hope that impaler makes a functional and interesting game out of khazad.
i've donated to toady before and will continue to donate, i respect and enjoy toady's work, and think impaler is arrogant and disrespectful and unlawful and everything, but that doesn't mean he can't be a competent game developer, and if he pulls an enjoyable game out of khazad, i'll be playing it.
it also isn't too much of a clone, in my opinion, it's a game in the same genre, it's just a very small genre of very broad games. it was inspired by dwarf fortress, and dwarf fortress is a "sim everything", if you try to make another "sim everything" it is likelly that many of your features will overlap with the other sim everything that there is already

[G-Flex]

it also isn't too much of a clone, in my opinion, it's a game in the same genre, it's just a very small genre of very broad games.

Did you read this at all? It doesn't read like design goals of a similar game. It reads like a commentary on DF specifically, with EXTREMELY similar functions and goals, beyond simply being another fantasy world simulator and strategy game. It's basically a feature list taken straight from Fortress Mode, with some of the common DF suggestions tacked onto it. He even uses much of the same terminology. He seriously isn't thinking outside the DF box at all: This is essentially DF Fortress Mode, with things thrown in that he would like to see in DF Fortress Mode itself.


And quite frankly, if this is how he organizes his projects (shoddy lists that aren't even proofread? come on) there's almost no way this won't crash and burn spectacularly.

[Mr Frog]

I must say, I'm quite impressed with the sheer volume of lol Impaler has generated in such a short time (no offense, fellow denizens of Bay 12 -- I'm laughing with you, not... yeah). The last time I facepalmed this hard at a single person was when I discovered the CWCki.

Seriously, what in the world is going through dear little Impy's tiny little mind? I mean, not only is he undertaking a massive project to produce what will essentially be an inferior copy of a much better game, but he also pretty much preemptively killed 75% of the target audience by coming here and making an ass of himself. (Excellent PR strategy, genius! Your cookie is in the mail.)

Of course, on the plus side, something like this seems quite likely to acquire a small but incredibly volatile fanbase (A niche for everything, right?)... *gets popcorn* There's a lolcow born every minute, and I sense much Drama in Impaler's not-so-near future

(Speaking of Drama, has anybody updated DF's Encyclopędia Dramatica page yet? Fail of this magnitude deserves to be chronicled.)

[Askot Bokbondeler]

it also isn't too much of a clone, in my opinion, it's a game in the same genre, it's just a very small genre of very broad games.

Did you read this at all? It doesn't read like design goals of a similar game. It reads like a commentary on DF specifically, with EXTREMELY similar functions and goals, beyond simply being another fantasy world simulator and strategy game. It's basically a feature list taken straight from Fortress Mode, with some of the common DF suggestions tacked onto it. He even uses much of the same terminology. He seriously isn't thinking outside the DF box at all: This is essentially DF Fortress Mode, with things thrown in that he would like to see in DF Fortress Mode itself.


And quite frankly, if this is how he organizes his projects (shoddy lists that aren't even proofread? come on) there's almost no way this won't crash and burn spectacularly.

yes, i read it, i see it as a game modeled after the fortress mode experience, it's not a clone of dwarf fortress. the 3d engine is an example of a major difference, there are others, tough, and overall, the game seems shallower. i think if it ever gets done, it will feel like something between dwarf fortress and cultures

but this isn't the place to discuss impalers project, it's more ontopic to bash it, so i'll withdraw from the discussion

[Jackrabbit]

DF has an ED page?

I'd rather not know.