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[Sabin Stargem]

I don't doubt that.  I am just worried about whether or not the rest of the team advocated shifting donations to themselves rather than Toady.  That is the sort of context that would determine how they are held in Toady's eyes, I feel.  It is one thing to put together tools and mods for the community, another to attempt splitting the community for their own gain, so I think figuring out if they support Impaler's stance is important. 

[Rose]

[PM 02:49:59] peterix: I wouldn't want to make a clone of DF
[PM 02:50:06] peterix: it's damn complex
[PM 02:50:16] peterix: I could spend years doing that

This is peterix's stance on the whole DF clone thing.

[frightlever]

Well this sucks. I've been completely submerged in DF for around a month now and donated a bit about a week ago.

However, reverse engineering isn't generally illegal, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering#Legality

The crappy comments from Impaler seem to be along the lines of, if you keep giving Toady money he won't fix the UI, which does seem to be an accurate statement but terribly mean-spirited.

The thing is, nobody else is doing anything like DF. It's the sort of game I've dreamed about, maybe on an even bigger scale.

If an open source clone attracts coders, and is built from the UI downwards, it's going to hurt DF. I'd love to say I wouldn't jump ship but...

Maybe it's time for Toady to turn DF into a commercial product, while the window of opportunity is still there.

[MrWiggles]

[PM 02:49:59] peterix: I wouldn't want to make a clone of DF
[PM 02:50:06] peterix: it's damn complex
[PM 02:50:16] peterix: I could spend years doing that

This is peterix's stance on the whole DF clone thing.

I'm force to mark the statement as suspect. Without knowing the context to the statement or in its relation to the time table of the banning it hard to judge validity.

[Adultratedhydra]

The crappy comments from Impaler seem to be along the lines of, if you keep giving Toady money he won't fix the UI, which does seem to be an accurate statement but terribly mean-spirited.

its not that, its just that the UI takes a much lesser priority than actually getting the game working. once the game is working then the UI can be tweaked around that.

its basicly the blizzard approach of "When its done".

[Rose]

it's from a skype conversation going on right now. there's no proof to back it up, for that reason, but the context is that we were discussing the fact that him and impaler got banned.

[MrWiggles]

Well this sucks. I've been completely submerged in DF for around a month now and donated a bit about a week ago.

However, reverse engineering isn't generally illegal, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering#Legality

The crappy comments from Impaler seem to be along the lines of, if you keep giving Toady money he won't fix the UI, which does seem to be an accurate statement but terribly mean-spirited.

The thing is, nobody else is doing anything like DF. It's the sort of game I've dreamed about, maybe on an even bigger scale.

If an open source clone attracts coders, and is built from the UI downwards, it's going to hurt DF. I'd love to say I wouldn't jump ship but...

Maybe it's time for Toady to turn DF into a commercial product, while the window of opportunity is still there.

There no point on working on the UI until all the features are in. Otherwise the UI has to be rework for the new features. Similar reason why a tutorial in game doesn't work. This is from my coding experience.

Implarer is correct on one of his Civ that a great UI can make a game even better, and a poor UI can truly render a game shit. We have a functional UI, that leans towards detriment to the game.

[MrWiggles]

it's from a skype conversation going on right now. there's no proof to back it up, for that reason, but the context is that we were discussing the fact that him and impaler got banned.

Then its sorta of a he said she said for me, and therefore weak. I dont know him well enough to judge his character or you to take your character for his as credit.

[Rose]

Yes, it is weak, however, you can look at the commit logs on the Khazad project on git-hub, and see that there's only two commits made by peterix, and they were both just some tech-support for interfacing with DFhack

I won't post any links, because that apparently frowned on.

[MrWiggles]

It seems to be, but I think thats an attempt to lessen the gasoline on the big pile of matches.
And Toady doesn't seem to be making his descion based solely on Gibut code place. Which, again is weak for his defense. I dont have enough information to form an opinion on it as such. I do hope that if he is cross fire, he would be allowed onto the board if he so chose.

[Toady One]

He posted a link to the clone as a clone just the other day, and he's been working with Impaler long enough to know where Impaler's coming from.  There was another incident regarding the motives of the DF Hack people a few months ago, but that involved "the DF Hack guys" rather than peterix by name and I don't want to drag in the other party to name individuals.  The symbols thing still bothers me.  But again, I don't have the log, so I can't be sure he was involved, and in general a few forumgoers seem surprised he'd be lumped in with ill-natured people.

So I'll unban peterix.  I think it goes almost without saying that I placed the two bans while I was angry, and that I'm not convinced my anger here was unjustified, but I'm not clear on some things, so I'll admit I acted somewhat rashly.  He can remake his DF Hack thread if he wants.  I'm sorry I deleted it.

[MrWiggles]

On hindsight, how hard was it to make cheese? I just got done reading the  'So let me get this straight. In order to...", where cheese and milking implication was the chief example to discuss the larger system.

From looking at the raws, and the dev logs, it seems like milkable creatures came from the same if not a similar system to the fire spewing, poison injecting fireball throwing system that was again partially required the body rewrites with the nerve tissues. Those needed to go in to get the health care really started. So milking was pairly involved in three large systems or so? I guess not really health care, so two then.

[zwei]

The crappy comments from Impaler seem to be along the lines of, if you keep giving Toady money he won't fix the UI, which does seem to be an accurate statement but terribly mean-spirited.

Well, reall shame here is that he chose jerk-approach to solving gui instead of trying to cooperate and help. Graphics Engine rewrite was good example of positive approach to issues.

But well, I am not afraid for Khazad, It will likely end up like many projects of such huge ambition: Once easy and fun bits are done, it will halt.

[bartavelle]

There was also more badmouthing associated to #dfhack, and apparently they are digging through some symbols that I released on accident, which I consider unethical.  They can do it, legally, as far as I know, but if they want to gleefully capitalize on my mistakes they shouldn't expect my respect.  I'm sure they don't care about that, anyway.

I'm not sure what this is about. I did complain about the complexity of some parts of the code, such as the new body appearance thingie, and I'm pretty sure there were many remarks about some implementation details that were not optimal. I do however believe that everybody on #dfhack love DF, or we just wouldn't invest the time.

As for everybody "shocked" about the reverse engineering use, it makes me feel like they need Captain Obvious. How exactly are you supposed to interpret the memory of a black box project without RE ? I do believe that many people have the wrong idea about how these utilities are written, and for which reason.

For me, the great value of DF is in the ideas that Toady has, and the sheer amount of code he produced, not in the implementation details. If I were to write a clone I would just read the changelogs. It takes a LOT of time to understand just a tiny part of code, such as, as I mentionned previously, getting the hair color of a creature. Without mentionning the stuff you get completely wrong because you miss a lot in such a large project.

Finally about the "don't care" line, I don't believe we are a bunch of bastards that only live to fork DF or dig bad things and make fun of them. I do like to see how things work under the hood, but if Toady really doesn't want us to look, I would just stop.

[LordNagash]

Finally about the "don't care" line, I don't believe we are a bunch of bastards that only live to fork DF or dig bad things and make fun of them. I do like to see how things work under the hood, but if Toady really doesn't want us to look, I would just stop.

I believe he was referring to people behind the clone here, not everyone who looked at it in general.