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[Deathworks]

Hi!

Troodon: Well, the ban statement did sound rather antagonizing. Especially since Toady One has a reputation for being rather lenient (I could think of one or two members that would probably have gotten an IP ban by now on other forums who are still here). By pointing out that an admin can ban you, it seems as if you expected the admin to be very willing to ban people.

Anyhow, your last post kind of puts things in a perspective - you point out that you have an approach different from what Toady One is taking. There is nothing wrong with that and you are welcome to have that opinion. You said yourself that Impaler went beyond such a legitimate opinion, thus warranting the heavy-handed reaction.

People here are making a lot of suggestions and interface improvements are very commonly discussed here, going in many directions. Toady One usually allows us to talk about such things, even when it seems obvious that he is not planning to go there any time soon (e.g. the feces threads). Thus, I, and probably a lot of other people, were rather surprised that Toady One was forced to ban someone.

As for your gaming experience, I can only point out that it is a universal thing - for instance, look a few pages beforehand, there we had voices talking about the good potential of hybrid input systems. In my gaming experience, hybrids are absolutely unplayable and a nightmare. I can get along with a mouse-driven game and I can get along with a keyboard driven game, but a game that requires mouse and keyboard to be used simultaneous is nothing I can get along with. There are simply different types of gamers with different needs. And as there are many people who find the current interface unplayable, there are also many people who get along pretty well with the interface (mind you, bugs are not part of the interface issue!). My point is that the numbers game is quite silly.

Finally, I have to admit that I do not really understand your position towards Impaler. On the one hand, you say that you doubt he will produce any useful results, on the other hand, you decide to go out of your way to support him, even though he has acted in an inappropriate manner and thus has alienated a lot of people here. So, I don't see any benefit for you but only a waste of effort plus a danger of getting grouped together with a person who shows a decisive lack of respect and probably also a lack of judgment.

Deathworks

[Josephus]

But it allows him to set himself and others like him as martyrs! It's the perfect ploy!

Not so.  No one has the obligation to listen to me talk, so while I think that banning is generally a rather heavy-handed approach that reduces the quality of a forum, it would be right and reasonable for Toady to ban me if he doesn't enjoy my presence here, just as I could unilaterally choose to leave if I didn't like it here.  Whether or not Toady wants to have criticism of the sort that I posted (as well as my confession to being willing to collaborate with someone he is not on good terms with) on this forum is unclear, so I wanted to explicitly say that I know I might get banned for it and it will not be as if Toady is banning random innocents.

Man, I was kidding.

[zwei]

At least for me, command line is serious suggestion.

It is mostly because good commandline interface is vastly more rich. Especially when you add advanced features like autocompletition.

In many ways, it is very much unlike using keybinds. Think of unix commandline versus midnight commander.

It's also the extreme opposite of user-friendliness. On the list of priorities, the command line should be way below proper GUI. (Yeah, I'm using the term  )

That really depends on execution.

Number 1 killer of userfriendliness is lack of feedback, Number 2 is opaqueness of function.

I would consider it not a expert player feature because controll flow is much different and opportunity for proper feedback is much bigger. (and it is certainly not replacement for gui/ui/i)

Here is examle session:

>make 30 rock blocks
$Added task for 30 rock blocks to job manager review list.
$Warning: There is no Workshop able to fullfill this task.
$Warning: There is no dwarf with Masony job enabled.
$Warning: There is no raw material Stone available.
>select dwarves order by skill masony
$expert mason, "Carpenter" Urist Mc Carpenter
$dabbling mason, "Big Boy" Usit Mc Leader
$none, Kivish Mc First
$none, Kivish Von Zwei
$none, Kivish 3
$none, Kivish 4
$none, Kivish 5
>enableskill Masony on Urist Mc Carpenter
$"Carpenter" Urist Mc Carpenter is now allowed to perform Masonry tasks in masons workshop and create construction from rock.
>select from stocks where type=rock
Bauxite Rock [forbidden]
Bauxite Rock [forbidden]
Bauxite Rock [forbidden]
Bauxite Rock [forbidden]
$Warning:
>unforbid from stock where type=rock
$4 items were unforbidden, Dwarves will now be able to use them.

etc ...

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Zwei: As I mentioned before, due to not having spent much time with command line since a little bit of CP/M and MS Dos (I know, basically redundant), I don't feel I have the expertise to comment on command line implementations and thus had not seriously thought about that. Mmmmmhhhh, on second thought, you might argue that interactive fiction/text adventures are at least related to command line gaming... then I would have a bit more expertise...

But the example you provide is extremely user friendly and especially good for newbies (one of the main reasons why I recommend 31.xx for newbies rather than 40d is the improved announcement system and the combat reports, as they help people get a better orientation). Here in the general discussion, we just had another newbie who got confused by the term 'b'uild 'b'ed and how it relates to the carpenter's workshop. Such extensive feedback could definitely help people figure these things out more easily. Actually, I would enjoy that myself...

Deathworks

[Sabin Stargem]

I actually rather like the old-style adventure games that lets you use text commands.  It was awesome to "kick the cat", "pick up the cat", "feel stone", and so on.  Unfortunately, a lack of vocabulary and linked context could very well make an interesting experience into one of frustration.  I think that the AGDI remake of Quest for Glory II had a very good solution, in that it came with pre-canned dialogue options, but you could also type questions.  This allowed the player to use simple dialogue trees or to directly ask whatever was on your mind, which is very helpful in my opinion.  Essentially, a good example of a hybrid system.

[immibis]

Here is examle session:

>select dwarves order by skill masony
>enableskill Masony on Urist Mc Carpenter
>select from stocks where type=rock
>unforbid from stock where type=rock

An SQL-based command line would be quite interesting.

Code: [Select]

> SELECT firstname, lastname FROM dwarves ORDER BY skill ASC;
+-----------+----------+
| firstname | lastname |
+-----------+----------+
| Urist     | McUrist  |
...
5 rows in set (0.01 sec)
> UPDATE stocks SET forbidden=1 WHERE type="rock" AND name="bauxite";
Query OK, 200 rows affected (0.08 sec)
Rows matched: 250  Changed: 200  Warnings: 0
> UPDATE dwarves SET labor_masonry=1 WHERE firstname="Urist" AND lastname="McCarpenter";
Query OK, 1 rows affected (0.01 sec)
Rows matched: 1  Changed: 1  Warnings: 0
> SELECT firstname, lastname FROM dwarves WHERE mother IN (SELECT dwarf_id FROM dwarves WHERE cur_job IN (SELECT job_id FROM job_items WHERE item_id IN (SELECT item_id FROM items WHERE type="rock" AND name="bauxite")) AND pregnant=1) AND father IN (SELECT dwarf_id FROM dwarves WHERE cur_job IN (SELECT job_id FROM jobs WHERE job_name="Strange Mood"))
+-----------+----------+
| firstname | lastname |
+-----------+----------+
| Urist     | McStuff  |
...
2 rows in set (1.50 sec)
That last one is to find the names of all dwarves whose mother is pregnant and currently performing a job involving bauxite rocks and whose father has a strange mood, in case you didn't figure it out 

[Deathworks]

Hi!

I actually rather like the old-style adventure games that lets you use text commands.  It was awesome to "kick the cat", "pick up the cat", "feel stone", and so on.  Unfortunately, a lack of vocabulary and linked context could very well make an interesting experience into one of frustration.

http://www.ifarchive.org/

That's where the scene went and there are many good ones there. Personally, I recommend Theatre, which is written in Inform/Z-Code, which is based on Infocom's engine, but there are many other good titles to find (everything genuine freeware).

Command Line: SQL - that really calls forth memory. I spent some time using that classic data base program whose name I currently can't remember (DBase?) on a C128 via CP/M.... Ah, those were the times....

Ahem. Anyhow, with the nice examples, I think we should get together a draft concept of a mandatory command line version of Dwarf Fortress, explaining our concept in charts, tables, and a power point presentation with at least 12 videos so that we can convince Toady One to permanently move the user interface to a command line. :) :) :)

Okay, that is exaggerating, but it is true that the examples are quite nice.

Deathworks

[toryoom]

There no point on working on the UI until all the features are in. Otherwise the UI has to be rework for the new features. Similar reason why a tutorial in game doesn't work. This is from my coding experience.

Implarer is correct on one of his Civ that a great UI can make a game even better, and a poor UI can truly render a game shit. We have a functional UI, that leans towards detriment to the game.

Valid up to a point.  ...But working on the constructs of a more organized UI isn't exactly the same thing as 'putting the cart before the horse' as so many people keep saying. The complexity of DF now --"alpha" or not-- along with the intended greater complexity expected in future, start to raise valid points on needing to address the wonky UI presently rather than at some vague point in the years(?) to come.  ...It's quite possible to get the UI to a point where it makes the game easier to work with right now, while still being generic enough to be versatile for all the in-game/code changes yet to come.  ...It's just straight up not being addressed, is all, even with all the logical points raised about the need for it.

...So Impaler's desire (up until the point where he was trying to clone and divert funds, obviously) is understandable to a pretty large degree, along with his apparent feeling that things that really have good reason to be addressed are just being left in the bin.  But the methods and attitude by which he expressed these things were completely mean-spirited, disrespectful, and misguided.

[toryoom]

Another alarming factor is the continuing shift toward simulation-oriented features: heavy procedural generation, complex formulas (especially in combat calculations), and small invisible mechanics (e.g. personality effects on abstract conversations).  All of these are difficult to directly observe, and it's hard to define correct output for them.  Essentially, they make it hard to identify bugs (not just for players!), and they represent lost opportunities to engage the player in game mechanics.  These features need UI.  Postponing that kind of UI for a massive v1 crunch is wishful thinking -- it raises the difficulty and drudgery of implementing UI by orders of magnitude, and meanwhile the game will become increasingly inscrutable and riddled with invisible bugs.

...Totally the thought I had when I made my initial post about all this, though I didn't express it because I was focusing on the fiasco with Impaler more.  But thanks for that, because that is exactly what I also wanted to say! Very VERY valid point that really needs to be considered carefully.

[Jiri Petru]

There no point on working on the UI until all the features are in. Otherwise the UI has to be rework for the new features. Similar reason why a tutorial in game doesn't work. This is from my coding experience.

Yeah, but we're talking about Dwarf Fortress here that won't ever have all the features in. And even version 1.0 is many, many, many years in the future, so go figure. This isn't really an argument.

Also, what astonishes me is that people actually suggest to prefer command line above a proper "user-friendly" interface. You do realize that command line helps only a fragment of a fragment of possible players? I do play Dwarf Fortess now which makes me a fragment. But I wouldn't play if it was command line based.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Also, what astonishes me is that people actually suggest to prefer command line above a proper "user-friendly" interface. You do realize that command line helps only a fragment of a fragment of possible players? I do play Dwarf Fortess now which makes me a fragment. But I wouldn't play if it was command line based.

I am a bit confused why you would be surprised by people prefering the command line. User-friendly is a very subjective term (as the discussion about hybrid controls hopefully has illustrated). Something that is simply awesome and user-friendly for one person may be unbearable for the next.

I, for one, have a background of knowing CP/M and databases from back then. I am also a big fan of text adventures/interactive fiction. Thus, command line is nothing scary for me, and the examples are quite comforting and friendly for me. But that is my personal preferences.

It takes a lot of different people to make a world.

Deathworks

[MP2E]

While I am a heavy linux user, and 99% of my work is done in the terminal with tools like git, vim, etc. I would hate to play Dwarf Fortress in a terminal. Terminal games are fun yes, but I can't see myself getting immersed into a command line in something as complex as Dwarf Fortress. I myself would like to see a nice, more user friendly GUI.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

obviously, the command line would be complementary and optional not a replacement for a ui

[Jiri Petru]

Deathworks, I'm not astonished that someone would prefer command line. I know there are people like this, I know plenty of people like command lines and I expect them to. What I'm astonished about is if people think that command line would be the best approach for the game in general. That it would benefit the majority. Which is as misleading as it can be. What I'm astonished about is that people actually honestly believe that Dwarf Fortress' interface is a good one and doesn't need an improval. And if it does, it would be something along the lines of a text string filter or a command line. What I'm astonished about is when people can't understand that Bay12 forums are populated by a bunch of IT nerds with a lot of free time (myself included) who are perfectly comfortable with obtuse interfaces (otherwise they wouldn't be here in the first place) but who are in fact a minority of the potential customer base.

And it's just an honest astonishment, and I don't mean it as an insult to anybody.

I am perfectly able to accept that everyone likes something else. You like text interfaces, no problem here, Deathworks. But we're not talking subjectivity here. If we want to talk about interface improvement, we have to try to find some objective measures here. And I've actually spend a lot of time thinking about the interface, thinking about how it could benefit as many people as possible, thinking how to make it user friendly. But when I come here, I'm told that the game doesn't need better organisation or reworking or whatever, instead it needs a command line.

This drives me mad. When I've read this thread for the first time, I laughed at Impaler and thought how stupid he was. But now I'm actually starting to understand his frustrations and have a strong urge to go and work on a interface for him (if only I could program a thing, yeah). What's stopping me are two things: 1) I still believe Impaler's project is wrong, and 2) I'm not arguing with Toady himself and there's still hope left that he might have a bit more acceptable (for myself) point of view.

EDIT: And yeah, I don't mind having a command line as a completely optional thing. I just felt someone was really proposing it over a "proper interface".

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Jiri Petru: Ah, I see now. I really misunderstood your formulation there and was confused (not really assuming insult, but not seeing the sense in that incorrect interpretation of your statement).

Well, my post suggesting making it mandatory was marked as a joke in that regard (several smilies and ridiculous scheme).

Actually, the examples illustrated a much bigger problem than icons or keyboards, namely the very basic information provided (the first example with its extensive error messages does a good job at that). And thinking about it, the command line actually does have potential to be helpful as a supplement for newbies - not for regular playing, but for kind of figuring things out. You know, just as in the example, they type in a task they want to do and the program either implements the necessary commands (using the command line window to show what steps were taken) OR tells the player what would be needed for the task to be executed.

But mind you, just as a supplement system/tool that gives additional feedback/shortcut possibilities to the player.

And as for the organizing thing, I personally think that the internal organization has priority about the interface organizing. For instance, the discussion we have about the rooms in the interface thread is actually more about consistency of internal concepts of the game and internal handling of entities. The interface is different for the different types of rooms/zones, because they are different things internally. And thus, if you want to unify that, you are basically not talking about the interface but about the game and its concepts - unless you want to take the risky path of destroying the link between interface and game proper.

Or putting it differently, an intuitive interface that requires you to do unintuitive in-game actions is just as frustrating to a new player as an unintuitive interface used to perform intuitive in-game actions. In the end, no interface can really hide if the game itself does not make sense.

That is the way I see it.

Deathworks