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[Jackrabbit]

I see we've picked up a new wanker while I was away on business. Or did Andir just change his name?

Hey, chill. Report him if it's getting bad.

[Zifnab]

Nikov, aren't you supposed to be a Christian somewere along the line?
I'm pretty sure that charity and helping your equals is not optional.
And taking freedom as an excuse isn't going to help your cause.
You know you're believing in a god that will judge you on how you lived, right?

From what I was tought in church while growing up:

Giving money for God's works (charity, helping others, etc) is supposed to be seperate from giving money to the government to run a country.
There is nothing noteworthy about giving money to the government.  It is just doing your duty.
Giving money/time to others in addition to the stuff going to the government is what is worthy of praise.
So a welfare state government is robbing you, as a Christian of doing good deeds by turning what should be praiseworth into just doing your duty.

[smigenboger]

Hmm, but doing your duty should be praiseworthy, right? Being a paid firefighter should be as praiseworthy as a volunteer one.

[Zifnab]

Well, look at the military.  Do you get medals for just doing your duty, or for going above and beyond the call of duty.

As to the paid/volunteer thing.  If a plastic surgeon does good work but gets paid for it, and another does some paid work too, but donates a lot of his time to reconstructing the faces of scarred, orphaned, refugee children, which do people look at as being a better person?

[kuro_suna]

Nikov, aren't you supposed to be a Christian somewere along the line?
I'm pretty sure that charity and helping your equals is not optional.
And taking freedom as an excuse isn't going to help your cause.
You know you're believing in a god that will judge you on how you lived, right?

From what I was tought in church while growing up:

Giving money for God's works (charity, helping others, etc) is supposed to be seperate from giving money to the government to run a country.
There is nothing noteworthy about giving money to the government.  It is just doing your duty.
Giving money/time to others in addition to the stuff going to the government is what is worthy of praise.
So a welfare state government is robbing you, as a Christian of doing good deeds by turning what should be praiseworth into just doing your duty.

Either way at this point it seems less like being pious and more like using religion as a shield to protect and justify your preexisting beliefs.

[Phmcw]

Yes but when exactly not being willing to give, and therefore letting poeple die, stopped being wrong.
Once again, Jesus wasn't exactly moderate in his speech.
I don't like religion, but I hate it when it deface it's original message to serve the interest of it's richest members.
Because of course, such a mentality mean they can exploit you as they want.

[Retro]

Well, I'm kind of amazed this thread has gone in the directions it has and come all the way back around, so as I don't think I ever gave my view I'll throw it in now.

A guy's gotta do the best that he can, and part of that is knowing when to quit. I could throw in a whole bunch of old saying here, like "A Man's Got To Pick His Battles Son" but the bottom line is that you're not going to be the best person ever and no matter what you do, you're never going to be able to do it perfectly. You need to balance your life. You have to do only what you're comfortable with on a moral, physical, and emotional level. If someone tries to guilt for doing as much as you can but not going to extremes above and beyond the call of duty, you have to just take it in stride.

So if you're the world's best surgeon and you want to take a break, fuck it, take the break. You've already saved countless lives, and you're sure to save countless more between vacations. Sure, people will die while you schmooze, as people are wont to do, but in the big picture people will always be dying. You choosing to take a vacation instead of work nonstop is not the best thing you could ever do according to hardass nun morals, but that does not at all discredit the good you do for the world when you're not sipping drinks in Tahiti.

[RAM]

Giving money for God's works (charity, helping others, etc) is supposed to be seperate from giving money to the government to run a country.
There is nothing noteworthy about giving money to the government.  It is just doing your duty.
Giving money/time to others in addition to the stuff going to the government is what is worthy of praise.
So a welfare state government is robbing you, as a Christian of doing good deeds by turning what should be praiseworth into just doing your duty.

But you choose your duties. You could move to a tax-haven or live under the radar or cheat the tax system or, you know, vote for a less welfare-based government. Willingly supporting a government that provides for the poor has the same effect as willingly supporting a charity that does the same thing. If you pay taxes for the same reasons as you give to charity then surely they are the same? Of course, if you pay taxes to protect yourself then that is a different matter... But does the bible actually mention organised charities? Or is it more about setting an example by going out yourself and being charitable manually, for the rest of your life... Atheism thread sense tingling!

[Nikov]

Nikov, aren't you supposed to be a Christian somewere along the line?
I'm pretty sure that charity and helping your equals is not optional.
And taking freedom as an excuse isn't going to help your cause.
You know you're believing in a god that will judge you on how you lived, right?

Its a trap!

Yes, I am a Christian.
No, charity and helping my equals (what does that even mean) is optional to salvation.
Freedom isn't an excuse, its the God-given natural state of man.
I am fully aware I am judged based upon how I live.

However...

You may not be a Christian and I will not force its ideals on you by declaring it your duty to behave as one.
What I choose to do out of charity is my own matter and not to be decided by social duty, as this nullifies it.
Taking freedom from others simply because they have a useful skill is not justifiable.
My salvation is not determined by how I live.

[Grakelin]

As much as I hate to agree with Nikov, Phmcw is completely wrong. Different denominations of Christians have different beliefs about God's salvation. Many of them don't even care about helping people. One denomination (I think it's Fundamentalist) has even declared that attempting to preserve the environment is a mortal sin because God wants the world to die.

One denomination doesn't care how you treat other people. Your dedication to God is proven by how financially successful your household is. If you are one of God's chosen, you will be wealthy.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

When it comes to Christianity and salvation, there are many, many, many opposing ideas on how to obtain it:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation#Christianity

We could spend a dozen threads arguing over that one article. 

[RAM]

Freedom isn't an excuse, its the God-given natural state of man.

It most certainly is not. Humans are social animals, they naturally form societies. Societies have rules, if you go around punching people your society will stop you, not to mention the natural inclination of humans to judge others. The nature of humanity fundamentally opposes many aspects of freedom.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Rules exist as a mutualy agreed upon social constraint. In theory, we all abide by the rules so that we are unhurt and don't hurt anyone else. But theory only works so far.

[Nikov]

Freedom isn't an excuse, its the God-given natural state of man.

It most certainly is not. Humans are social animals, they naturally form societies. Societies have rules, if you go around punching people your society will stop you, not to mention the natural inclination of humans to judge others. The nature of humanity fundamentally opposes many aspects of freedom.

The 'natural' state of man is still free, thanks to a notion called the social contract. Even if one is born into say, feudal England, one can opt to not pay taxes and become an outlaw, removing themself from society in order to return to the natural state of freedom. Society might persecute such persons by law or otherwise, but this is the projection of force and an attempt to subvert those living in the natural state.

I appreciate your intellectual honesty, Grakelin. Its a lot easier to play Punch The Christian than agree with one, as I'm sure you know.

And for the record, I believe that even Adolph Hitler could be saved, since I disagree with say, Catholics that suicide is unforgiveable. I would doubt very much that he was, however, since I am quite certain he was athiest.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

And for the record, I believe that even Adolph Hitler could be saved, since I disagree with say, Catholics that suicide is unforgiveable. I would doubt very much that he was, however, since I am quite certain he was athiest.

No.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends....
National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.

Hitler claimed his christian faith many a time, and condemned atheism. As you can see above. If you need more, here is the source: http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm