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Author Topic: Legendary Creatures Population Control  (Read 1087 times)

Yonder

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Legendary Creatures Population Control
« on: May 11, 2007, 12:33:00 am »

I have been thinking about the magical creature issue. It has been mentioned that it is quite possible maybe even probable) that these legendary creatures will be hunted to extinction, and there has been discussion of how to fill this void. So I was wondering how to handle the limited number of these creatures, the players affect on their population, other sources of harm to their population, and their history. First I looked at it from the perspective that these animals were doomed to die eventually, which I believe is the common thought process. Slow reproductive rate, player shows up and wipes them out. Then I started thinking, well, if they were that inviable, they should have died earlier, after all, when you get to DF there is already a significant history, one which does not include dragons dying out. One could argue that the mortal creatures (including elves even I suppose, so maybe humanoid is better) have been expanding more and more, pushing the legendary creatures out and taking their life and land. However a common theme in fantasy is that their are generally large civilizations which have existed in the past, and collapsed since then, dragons, hydras, etc lived through this period of dwarven/human/even domination, even though the size of the empire is often larger, and it was more powerful, than it is now. So how have they survived?

One answer, of course, is that they didn’t. At the beginning of the world there were more dragons (for example) than they have ever been, they steadily declined (maybe substantially, such as in the time of the historic Empire) until now, when there are few left. Alternatively the population is relatively stable, dragons are robust creatures after all, and their extinction is nowhere near assured. As great an Empire as the player makes, there have probably been large Empires in the past as well, in DF you exist in the world much more often than you dominate it. For every adventurer that slays a Dragon there are dozens who are torn apart by lions, scorpions, and groundhogs. Look at Copperblazes, that shows you that some players will make extraordinary things that probably have never before been seen in the world, but it should take a player like that to topple one (or more) of the mythical races, not an average one. Now let’s look at a couple ways Dragons can survive over the years, including how they apply to Adventure and Fortress mode.

1.   They are very, very powerful. They are naturally armored, have powerful attacks, including ranged attacks, and they can fly. This means that not just any rabble can take them out, it takes a very powerful (and very rare) hero, or a sizable imperial force.

2.   They are intelligent. This means a couple things, one, they are able to communicate, make deals, make friends (depending on Toady’s vision of dragons, the amount in which they can do this may be extensive or quite limited). This also translates to tactics as well. A zombie well hobble straight into 5 armed knights, a troll may as well. A dragon is smart enough to realize when it should back down. It can run away from a fight, fight dirty, ambush, and attack from behind. Its maneuverability assists it in these things. They also generally have a good idea about what is going on in their territory, giving them the opportunity to attack (or run from), maybe not the lone sneaky adventurer (although maybe if he brings some friends), but definitely a small army.

3.   They do reproduce, just a little slower than normal races. The particular amount they do so (and how quickly and how many stages they go through while growing up) varies a little bit in fantasy, so there is wiggle room for game balance,  but dragons having a batch of 2-3 children every 2-3 centuries sounds pretty reasonable. Let’s say the game world has 20 dragons, even if only 4 of them reproduce regularly you would still be able to run through 4 dragons a century and everything would balance out.

Now 4 dragons a century doesn’t sound like very much. As an adventurer I myself killed two dragons in what was probably not even a couple weeks, however, thinking like this is forgetting that dragons are intelligent; as more of them die off they will get the word and start behaving differently in ways that make them harder to kill. The precise ways in which they realize that they are starting to be killed off could vary, but it is definitely not illogical to assume that many of them would get the memo.

Dragons in general would be on their guard more, they may patrol their surrounding lands more so that they are not taken by surprise. Instead ambushing the attacker outside, where they can make full use of their flight and long range. Forest fires are an excellent defensive mechanism. If the dragons are more intelligent they could trap their mountain a bit, or make a pack with another entity to provide mutual protection. A good dragon may offer to protect a Dwarven Fortress in exchange for them protecting him, an evil dragon may enslave/ally with goblins or trolls. (Not like the random cave monsters you fing in dragon caves now, a real fortress and military) A dragon could be assumed to know something about the killer, perhaps visiting one of the old caves, sniffing around (literally) and looking at the remnants of the fight (spent arrows maybe) would let him know whether it was a human, elf, or dwarf  responsible. Then he may go to the nearest band of those and either torch it, or make inquiries. Lacking that he may just go to the nearest town or large city. A less intelligent (or just very angry) dragon, for example, may destroy it. A more intelligent one could make peace with the king who sent the adventurer, threaten to destroy the palace/town/king unless he gives up the location of the Adventurer, or something else.

If instead of an adventurer an empire/army is responsible it would be much easier to identify the culprits. In this case the consequences would be even more dire. Generally dragons are solitary, however as they start being killed they will feel more vulnerable, and more likely to group together for protection. Therefore it would be perfectly logical for Several dragons to show up at the doorstep of the Kingdom which has slaughtered five of their kin. (Think of when the Ents finally decided they were sick of Saruman killing them off) The kingdom would be hard pressed to fight that off. This isn’t only a problem for Fortresses. An adventurer who has killed several dragons, (and has someone avoided being snuffed out by them, avoiding the destruction they have caused looking for him) May find that the next cave dragon he hunts down has adopted the buddy system and now has a friend to watch his back.

A few additional points, dragons the whole world over may become more paranoid and aggressive, feeling threatened by the humanoids near them and trying to drive them away, also as a last resort the dragons may simply evacuate, leaving for islands or other far off locations that other things can’t get to. Also, the help the mythical beasts get may not be from themselves. A god may decide you are disrupting the natural order of things, or one kingdom/race may like what you are trying to mow off and rise to its defense. Also, other, more powerful legendary beasts may rise to protect their distant cousins or servants.

Lastly, this guide mainly focused on dragons, these are intelligent creatures, and at least slightly social, even if they prefer to be isolated. Thus many of the things talked about may not apply to all legendary creatures. Hydras, for example, may indeed have no idea that most of their race has been hunted to extinction, or may realize it far later than dragons would. Also, there reactions may be limited. A hydra can be more alert, and attack nearby towns and villages, but it probably can’t reason with or blackmail a king.

[ May 11, 2007: Message edited by: Yonder ]

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Momaw

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2007, 01:40:00 am »

Well, it might be the case that legendary creatures don't need two of their kind to reproduce. At least some of them may simply and suddenly Exist as a result of conditions or events.  Perhaps some are visitors from alternate planes.  Perhaps some are conjured up by powerful magic-users.  Perhaps they live on another continent beyond the reach of a pseudomedieval civilization, and only get over to DF's continent occaisionally.

Plus the intelligent monsters should behave intelligently, in that you would be able to make bargains with them:

Dragon: "Give me 3 diamonds, or I will terrorize your trade routes!"
Dwarves:  "Here, take these."
Dragon: "Nice doing business with you."

If they're invading you, they must have a reason for doing so. There should be nonviolent means for pacifying intelligent creatures. Unless their sole reason for showing up is that they like the taste of dwarf meat, in which case chasing it away wounded would be more plausible than having to kill it outright.

It also isn't said that the given type of creature is always "evil".  Perhaps the ones you meet are the minority of trouble makers, and that there are a large number of legendary creatures living near other civlizations, and they don't cause a problem.

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Spelguru

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2007, 02:16:00 am »

Also, the creatures *are* magical. Maybe each magical race have a homeplane of their own that somehow can supply reinforcements, either through choice or through nature. Or maybe they all share one magical homeplane where the magical creatures live free from the oppression of society!

A very serene and good aligned peaceful forest that doesn't have unicorns might somehow (maybe with the aid of an non-sentient good forest entity spirit?) get a herd or twenty of unicorns through a magical route.

Or, the last dragon of the world could, since he's sentient, make a logical choice to somehow increase the dragon population. Maybe he somehow opens a portal and summons a dragon brood mother of some kind that instead of laying eggs in batches of 2-3, lays them in batches of 20-30. This would *heavily* encourage a player to not chase them into extinction. After a century or two, the world would after all be over run by dozens and dozens of dragons. Or the dragon might pray to some dragon god for half a dozen of enchanted dragon eggs at the cost of his own life or some such.

Also, at it is now, each civ is at constant war with the animals in their vicinity, except maybe the elves vs unicorns, they might be peaceful. In the future we could have kingdoms dedicated not only to using the creatures (unicorn farmer anyone?), but preserving the species (unicorn hides are valuable, can't sell em if the entire species is dead!). If kingdoms start wiping out dragons, the remaining ones might just decide to relocate to the Dragon Empire, where they are worshipped and holy, and treated to a fair maiden a month. Assuming they weren't already living there.

Also, what kind of demoralizing effect would it have on the foes if your army has 3 *tame* hydras on their side? Your kingdom might be some sort of swamp dwelling civilization that has learned to tame the untamable creatures of the swamp!

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Heliopios

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2007, 08:25:00 am »

Like in NetHack?
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Spelguru

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2007, 09:07:00 am »

I haven't really played nethack except romp around a bit on the first level before quitting in boredom.
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Draco18s

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2007, 09:11:00 am »

Ah....now you're getting into the stuff I wish the creator of Trials of Assention would get through his thick skull...  :)
He wants to rape dragon players for their money.  I on the other paw will find every available means of raising a dragon character from hatchling to city-killing adult with an almost flawless accuracy (i.e. avoiding the 499 in 500 chance of dying from disease, etc. BUILT INTO the game engine--not to mention dragon hunting PCs) and then get about 23 other people doing the same thing.  Then everyone logs in at once and we go, "ok you 6 go that way, you 6 go that way, you 6 go that way and the rest of us will go this way.  Conquer EVERYTHING" and become liege lords of the entire MMO in a week.

Oh, any city that is found to be helping a dragon gets deleted.  :) So, we conquer the map--every city supplying a dragon (or they get burned to the ground)--what happens?

GMs are forced to delete the entire persistent world and I laugh and laugh and laugh.

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Fieari

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2007, 11:32:00 am »

I wrote a little essay on the subject of dragons a while back too... I focused on the diplomacy aspect though.  Which is what I think a dragon should be all about-- dragons have awesome physical capabilities that can be used to bully entire nations.  Use that!  But be careful, for adventurers ARE a threat... so you need to have a balance... use your power to obtain tribute, but don't push TOO hard, or you'll have some legendary adventuring party find you in your den.

I really want to see dragons not only threaten directly, but act as mafia godfathers... protection fees, not just from ME, but because I can have that nation come conquer you.  And dragons also want to make sure that their vassals are as prosperous as possible, so there's a lot of manipulation that'll go into there as well...

And getting involved in wars will be SO much fun...

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TotalPigeon

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2007, 12:07:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Momaw:
<STRONG>

Dragon: "Give me 3 diamonds, or I will terrorize your trade routes!"
Dwarves:  "Here, take these."
Dragon: "Nice doing business with you."

</STRONG>


More mandates? Awww man...

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Heliopios

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2007, 05:29:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by TotalPigeon:
<STRONG>

More mandates? Awww man...</STRONG>


The Dragon has issued a new mandate.


N, scroll, scroll, enter, enter


TWELVE ADAMANTINE AMULETS

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Vanigo

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2007, 06:35:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Heliopios:
<STRONG>

The Dragon has issued a new mandate.


N, scroll, scroll, enter, enter


TWELVE ADAMANTINE AMULETS</STRONG>



Well, time to flood its bedroom.  :p
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Mechanoid

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2007, 07:56:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Heliopios:
TWELVE ADAMANTINE AMULETS

Holy f!ing ZING.


[But it would definitely be nice for fanastical creatures to come and talk to you. Maybe not always a hostile "Gimme X or die" but a "I will provide my services for X food /drink, as my pay" (unless the economy started; then coins will be given when asked for)
And depending on the creature, they'll ask for different things you HAVE, so if a creature likes crowns, they may ask for crowns of a specific quality...
They'd be like nobles, except they'd actually do work. It'd be wonderful to have a dragon working your forges! No fuel! Even if he did demand he take all the metal crafts you make.

[ May 11, 2007: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]

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Chariot

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2007, 08:45:00 pm »

just dont let a masterpiece the dragon makes get destroyed...
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I27

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2007, 08:57:00 am »

Imagine what that could do to the justice system:

Murder.
 Injured party: Urvad Dumatdum, Duke

Punishment:
 Must appease Krakkature Dwarfbane of the Lacy Prophecies, the Dragon.

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Spelguru

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2007, 10:25:00 am »

"of the Lacy Prophecies"... Appease it how, and what exactly did the lacy dragon do to the dwarves to gain the title of Dwarfbane?
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Chariot

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Re: Legendary Creatures Population Control
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2007, 02:41:00 pm »

he forced them all to wear frilly clothes
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