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[ein]

I have book 4 of that.
Also, Hellblazer and Watchmen.

[ILikePie]

As long as you don't mind / agree with the author's pro-Israeli viewpoints, of course. They're not overbearing, but they're obviously there - mainly in the way one of the Fables tells the big bad to go fuck himself after doing what's basically a terrorist / guerilla attack.

*Ahem* I am Israeli, so no need to worry about any of that.
Damn it, there are so many good comics to read. Its like that huge pile of dishes I had on the counter the other day, I didn't know where to start.

Anyway, how about we shift from recommendations to actually discussing comics. I mean, what we like/dislike about them.

To start it off, I'll restate my previous statement about comics made for a mature audience. Personally, I find mature comics much deeper and complex. When making comics for kids, the writer cuts out parts that look and sound to complicated (or are just inappropriate, I'll get to that in a moment), leaving dull story lines without much depth to them. The ability to discuss more mature themes also gives the comic more depth, and fleshes out the characters' personality (Would you hate the Comedian as much as you do if all he did was shoot random people?). The world feels a lot more real, terrible places can be made worse and the good ones look much better. It also gives the villain other motives than just the corny "Conquer the world" idea.

What do you guys think?

[ein]

The villain in Watchmen was really well set up.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I like how he kills off lots of people for the purpose of saving the rest of the world.
Stories need more villains that think they're good guys, or really are good guys.
Also, he did it 35 minutes ago.

[Il Palazzo]

To start it off, I'll restate my previous statement about comics made for a mature audience. Personally, I find mature comics much deeper and complex. When making comics for kids, the writer cuts out parts that look and sound to complicated (or are just inappropriate, I'll get to that in a moment), leaving dull story lines without much depth to them. The ability to discuss more mature themes also gives the comic more depth, and fleshes out the characters' personality (Would you hate the Comedian as much as you do if all he did was shoot random people?). The world feels a lot more real, terrible places can be made worse and the good ones look much better. It also gives the villain other motives than just the corny "Conquer the world" idea.

What do you guys think?

I think you just said "comics for mature audience have more mature themes than the rest, so the mature audiences will like them more". I can't argue with that.

[ILikePie]

Well, what I meant to was that I think mature comics are better, and its a shame you don't see awesome people like Marvel making mature comics. Spiderman could really use another 'darker' side to him, and Superman should stop being such a fine gentleman.

[Il Palazzo]

The way I see it, Marvel is to comics industry what Hollywood is to movies. It caters to a certain kind of people, who don't need any disturbing/thought provoking imagery in their entertainment.
You will hardly ever find some Lynch or Zulawski among blockbusters, and it's only understandable.

But artsy stuff is generally what Europe is for.(and Japan is for disturbing)

[ein]

Japan is for awesome.

[Josephus]

Well, what I meant to was that I think mature comics are better, and its a shame you don't see awesome people like Marvel making mature comics. Spiderman could really use another 'darker' side to him, and Superman should stop being such a fine gentleman.

Please tell me that you don't think "Mature" equals "increased violence and sex", because if you do, you may as well go take a look at the shittiest comics of the Dark Age.

(Or Sin City, which is actually, you know, pretty good)

And the defining point of Superman's character - his fucking values, for god's sake - essentially make him "a fine gentleman". If you want an antihero, DC has other offerings. Superman is supposed to be the White Knight, and the best Superman stories involve him struggling with that ideal.

[ILikePie]

Well, what I meant to was that I think mature comics are better, and its a shame you don't see awesome people like Marvel making mature comics. Spiderman could really use another 'darker' side to him, and Superman should stop being such a fine gentleman.

Please tell me that you don't think "Mature" equals "increased violence and sex", because if you do, you may as well go take a look at the shittiest comics of the Dark Age.

Oh no, just make them more appropriate to older people, you do agree that Watchmen is very different from something like Spiderman. Yes, sometimes it does come with "increased violence and sex", but you don't need those to make good comic, heck, you can even leave them out. A villain like The Penguin for example is pretty flat out boring, all the guy does is kill and make money. On the other hand, the villain in Watchmen (Please excuse me taking all my examples from Watchmen; I like it maybe a bit too much) which doesn't have this crazy idea of ruling the world or making tons of cash, he's just trying to fix the world in a sort of twisted way. Sometimes  "increased violence and sex" comes with the package, and the author can use them to add character to the setting or people. Another way to make a comic fit for older people it to add politics into the mix, maybe some insanity too (Though you can find some of that Batman). These are just a few things that make a comic "mature", I can go on, but I think you get the picture.

And the defining point of Superman's character - his fucking values, for   god's sake - essentially make him "a fine gentleman". If you want an   antihero, DC has other offerings. Superman is supposed to be the White   Knight, and the best Superman stories involve him struggling with that   ideal.

Hmm, good point, I guess you are right about this one. Superman's gentalmanyness does make him who he is.

[Josephus]

In that case, you might like Lucifer by Mike Carey, the (incomplete) Miracleman reboot by Alan Moore and later by Neil Gaiman, and Kingdom Come by Alex Ross and Mark Waid.

Brian Michael Bendis' Powers series is also not half bad most of the time, if you think you'd enjoy a police-procedural type comic.

[Pathos]

<snip>

I'd just like to say that Fables' villain is really not going to be the guy you expect. In fact, I'm gonna say you'll be outright shocked.

[MrWiggles]

V for Vendetta is quite fun. Though I prefer the Movie ending over the comic ending.

Teen Age Mutant Ninja Tutrles from the 80s and early 90s are quite fun. There a period in like 95 I wanna, where the Turtles went uber dark, and it wasnt as good.

Deathnote is overall for me a B+, it drags a bit near the end of the middle, as it introduces these two near character and get them involved in the plot, it ends pretty strongly and through most of it, I was always wanting to know what was going to happen. Its a great cat and mouse game with xantos gambits and xantos speed chess through most of it.

Dragonball and Dragonball Z in the states are also a fine read. A pretty complete story from end to end, you find the tonal difference from Kid Goku adventure to Adult Goku adventures jarring though.

Planetes is great.

Total props for Akira.

[Siquo]

I'm now reading Sin City, it's good, but intentional pulp (it's supposed to be pulpy).

As a kid, I really liked Storm, and Trigan, by Don Lawrence. His style is incredibly rich, and I still like to read them.

[Pathos]

*Ahem* I am Israeli, so no need to worry about any of that.
Damn it, there are so many good comics to read. Its like that huge pile of dishes I had on the counter the other day, I didn't know where to start.

That's Briar Rose, by the by.

And, yeah, I have to agree on the mature comics thing. If you like, I can send you the first few issues of Fables in CBR (Comic Book Reader) format.

[DennyTom]

Y: The Last Man was good, never finished it though.

What? I pretty sure it has an end.