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Author Topic: An african american spiderman.  (Read 15944 times)

Creaca

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #150 on: June 04, 2010, 12:04:12 am »

The Lassie analogy that has so far been unrefuted?

Let me take the Lassie Analogy and replace 'Lassie' with 'Spiderman', 'collie' as 'White Guy', 'beagle' as 'Black Guy', 'Timmy' with 'Mary Jane', and 'dog' with 'Super Hero'. That way, it won't have to be an analogy at all.

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Let's say they made a Spiderman adaptation. Except instead of a White Guy, they cast Spiderman as a Black Guy. It's not an change to the integral core of the character, Spiderman can still be a Super Hero and run around and save Mary Jane and shit. Does that make it an arbitrary distinction? No. Spiderman is a fucking White Guy.

So...what you're saying is that it's a perfect analogy? Glad we're on the same page here.

Lassie is a fucking collie.

You're arguement is that a Spiderman can't be black, because that's wrong

You're right, that's a perfectly stupid point.
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Josephus

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #151 on: June 04, 2010, 12:06:28 am »

The Lassie analogy that has so far been unrefuted?

Let me take the Lassie Analogy and replace 'Lassie' with 'Spiderman', 'collie' as 'White Guy', 'beagle' as 'Black Guy', 'Timmy' with 'Mary Jane', and 'dog' with 'Super Hero'. That way, it won't have to be an analogy at all.

Quote
Let's say they made a Spiderman adaptation. Except instead of a White Guy, they cast Spiderman as a Black Guy. It's not an change to the integral core of the character, Spiderman can still be a Super Hero and run around and save Mary Jane and shit. Does that make it an arbitrary distinction? No. Spiderman is a fucking White Guy.

So...what you're saying is that it's a perfect analogy? Glad we're on the same page here.

Lassie is a fucking collie.

You're arguement is that a Spiderman can't be black, because that's wrong

You're right, that's a perfectly stupid point.

No, he's arguing that Spider-Man and Peter Parker are different people.
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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #152 on: June 04, 2010, 12:10:24 am »

Why I'm hesitant: Superheroes are designed so that in two or three sentences, you can basically communicate their backstory, motivation, and struggles.

Examples: A philandering, millionaire, military arms developer gets critically by an evil organization wielding his weapons. To save his life, he creates a super-suit that not only keeps his heart beating, but also fights crime. (Iron Man.)

Four scientists are in space when blasted by radiation that causes them to mutate horribly, but with useful side-effects. Thrust uncomfortably into the public spotlight, they have to deal with both their new and strange reality, and many disasters that they may be able to solve. (Fantastic Four.)

Young, disaffected teenagers suddenly experience strange mutations, which often bend the laws of nature. Faced with scorn from normal humans, these teenagers divide into two camps, the separatists who often attack normal human infrastructure, and those who attempt to prevent these attacks. (X-Men.)

Notice that these descriptions play on your standard stereotypes. While there's no reason that the first guy be white, or straight, or male, the stereotype is that he is. For all the character depth that goes into him, remember that you can always boil it back down to those sentences. Comic book characters are designed that way--your stereotypes are affirmed, simply because it makes it easier to get past the backstory and on to the real plot. Now, for the man in question,

A young nerd, still in school, is exposed to spider venom that dramatically changes his physiology for the better. Though he initially fails to use these changes for good, he quickly learns his lesson when his Uncle is killed. Now he fights crime and injustice, despite the havoc that it wreaks on his personal life, and struggles to live with the consequences.

If we add the black part in, we've got lots more to consider, beyond the stereotype-breaking. For example: Believe it or not, people are racist. If a black man doesn't show up for work, they assume he's being negligent. In this case, he's fighting crime, which makes the point moot, but this is definitely a misconception that's going to pop up. Which can definitely make for good drama, yes, but the tendency will be for heavy-handed messages about racism. There are more factors to consider: What do people say about a down-on-his-luck black dude versus a white dude in the same position? What happens when he doesn't show up for a date--is the assumption going to be that he's cheating on the girl, which is clearly out of character? How does he deal with this racism? Is some part of the audience going to assume he was living on the streets once, and that's how he can fight? Are they right?

Now, these aren't all huge problems in and of themselves. But they complicate the character, probably so I can't summarize him in a few sentences. And that's a big part of the comic-book appeal, for me--despite the depth, the development, we can always come back to the same core character. It's a world painted in bright colors, with broad strokes, which means it's not always realistic at times--more like a vaudeville play, or a Saturday morning cartoon. But when I want to read/watch comic things, that's what I'm expecting, and I think that's what the target audience is expecting. That's why I'd be really, really wary of a change like this.

There are other superheroes that I wouldn't bat an eye at people turning black. And if someone wanted to come up with an erudite, black comic-book character, that would be more than fine. But realize that race is going to have to be woven in from the beginning, because of these sort of complications. It's not fair, yes, it's racist, yes, but this is more the fault of the (modern) society that the character must interact with than the writers being biased. But maybe I'm wrong, and I'll allow for that--it could be that the writers will write something that makes Moby Dick look like a hack job.
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Enzo

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #153 on: June 04, 2010, 12:20:40 am »

No, he's arguing that Spider-Man and Peter Parker are different people.

I'm pretty sure that's what MetalSlimeHunt is doing, and it's actually a very good point that any True Believer would make. There's a chapter in Give Our Regards to the Atomsmashers that this discussion keeps reminding me of. I'm too lazy to paraphrase it, but trust me, it was awesome. It was about Spiderman being whatever colour you wanted him to be.

You're arguement is that a Spiderman can't be black, because that's wrong.

Yeah, that's the gist of it, but I was explaining it in a way that would avoid that statement sounding suspiciously racist. For a less obvious analogy (because apparently you distrust direct ones), lets say Spiderman was fighting crime in Chicago. It doesn't really change anything, but it's wrong.
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Grakelin

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #154 on: June 04, 2010, 12:40:03 am »

Don't gloss over bjlong's post, because he's saying something important:

Spiderman being white isn't just simplification. If he was black, it would change who he is as a character. People of different ethnicities have different life experiences. This isn't racism (although it might be caused by racism). Opposing the idea of changing Peter Parker's ethnicity isn't just about being reactionary. It's about the character of Peter Parker coming from a certain background which shapes his persona. He's not the only superhero who is avenging a dead family member, after all. What makes him different from Batman is the direction that his background has led him to.

If everything about Peter Parker was the same, but he was black, we would be faced with issues such as his (caucasian) employer screaming at him all the time. The film would then involve themes of white authoritarianism and control in America. What about Mary Jane? Is Mary Jane also going to be black? If not, won't this cause us to delve into the theme of interracial relationships (overshadowing the themes that already exist)? If yes, the history behind Spiderman will open up themes of interracial relationships anyways, because of the writer's apparent need to keep Spidey and his lover the same ethnicity.

So instead of having a movie about working class life and struggles, it becomes a movie about racial issues. It isn't just because a black person is in the movie, don't make the mistake of trying to call me on that, it's because the black person has replaced the white person. A movie about racial issues wouldn't even be bad. The problem is that it's Peter Parker. If they were willing to do away with Peter Parker and have some other hero with his own personality go into the role, it would work by shifting all of the themes to a new stage (although never really getting rid of racial themes because it's Spiderman). Perhaps they could just pretend Peter and his backstory never existed, or that he's old now and is passing the torch. But then it's just really obvious that they did it just for kicks.

Also, John Stewart as the Green Lantern is already DC's response to the ethnicity issue, and the X-Men is already Marvel's response. The iconic heroes have generally done a good job of not stepping on eachother's thematic toes so far (Batman is all about morality issues, Superman is all about fitting in, Spiderman is all about the struggles of the working class, X-Men is about racial prejudice).
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Enzo

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #155 on: June 04, 2010, 01:00:17 am »

The only reason I'm ignoring that train of thought is that I'm operating on the assumption that if they went with a black spiderman, they would probably just keep the existing script and gloss over any racial implications. Which would, of course, make the idea all the worse.
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Muz

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #156 on: June 04, 2010, 01:14:04 am »

If I could give points for writing cool things (like some forums do), I'd give one to bjlong and Grakelin for that. Most enlightening thing I've read on B12 all month :P
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Euld

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #157 on: June 04, 2010, 01:22:45 am »

Currently taking bets that the black spiderman movie will 1)Say Peter Parker came from a lower class home in the ghetto, 2)Include several rap sequences, and rap background music 3)Make Peter Parker say various 'gangsta' type lines.

I might have to hurt something if they actually do that...

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #158 on: June 04, 2010, 01:34:26 am »

Currently taking bets that the black spiderman movie will 1)Say Peter Parker came from a lower class home in the ghetto, 2)Include several rap sequences, and rap background music 3)Make Peter Parker say various 'gangsta' type lines.

I might have to hurt something if they actually do that...

I will take that bet.
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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #159 on: June 04, 2010, 03:14:32 am »

"The description doesn't say black, therefore white" doesn't sound very convincing to me.

If you "add black", it becomes more complicated? That's weird. By reading bjlong post, the first thing to come to my head is: it doesn't say "white" anywhere, could be anybody (the womanizing industrialist could be from Hong Kong for all I know). But apparently my brain is just wired differently, I don't assume everyone is white by default, and they can have blackness added or removed to them as a trait, like "really loves trains" or "enjoys playing golf" or "is a student".
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Tofu

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #160 on: June 04, 2010, 09:13:42 am »

Oh, let us all take this one step further.
Recast lassie as a cow, no, really a cow.
Quote
Let's say they made a Lassie adaptation. Except instead of a collie, they cast lassie as a cow. It's not an change to the integral core of the character, Lassie can still act like a dog and run around and save Timmy and shit. Does that make it an arbitrary distinction? No. Lassie is a fucking collie.
Now, no one would argue that this would suck, because it certainly sounds fucking awesome. But, at least, think about it. If a lassie movie had a cow instead of a collie, and it would act exactly the same, and do everything exactly the same, then wouldn't you be at least slightly alarmed? Excuse me if this goes over your head as dumb, but it is essentially the same thing.
Nothing there is really changed.
Same thing if you changed spiderman to a talking cat, sure it would be the same story and you could pass it off as spiderman, but it would still feel like a cat bumper-sticker over Peter Parker's face.
well, this is at least what I think. Sure you can change it, and really there isn't really any logical reason why you can't, but it just doesn't feel right at all, and that should be cause enough for some serious rethinking.
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Retro

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #161 on: June 04, 2010, 09:32:04 am »

I think the arguments about how replacing 'AAA' with 'aaa' and how they're almost exactly the same but it would still feel 'wrong' are a bit silly and over-resistant to change. However I agree with bjlong and Grakelin. I think some competent writers, given enough time, could sidestep a lot of these issues (or make the audience not pay notice and therefore accept it), but Hollywood... yeah, I guess it's not happening.

CJ1145

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #162 on: June 04, 2010, 09:42:14 am »

Oh, let us all take this one step further.
Recast lassie as a cow, no, really a cow.
Quote
Let's say they made a Lassie adaptation. Except instead of a collie, they cast lassie as a cow. It's not an change to the integral core of the character, Lassie can still act like a dog and run around and save Timmy and shit. Does that make it an arbitrary distinction? No. Lassie is a fucking collie.

Are... are you calling black people cows?

EDIT: As for the topic at hand, I have to say I actually liked Tobey as Spider-Man. Any change in the actor will be extremely jarring to me. However, if it was a white guy who kind of looked/sounded like Tobey there'd be less surprise. Now if it was a black guy, or an asian, or anybody, that would be rather surprising. Because when I start up a Spider-Man movie, I'm expecting Tobey Maguire. When a black guy comes on the screen and says "I'm your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man" my brain goes "Wait, what the fuck is this? That's not Spider-Man, that's just some nerdy black guy!"

I wouldn't call that racist, so much as expecting a certain appearance to a character, and being shocked when it's somebody else.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 09:45:07 am by CJ1145 »
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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #163 on: June 04, 2010, 09:45:48 am »

Oh, let us all take this one step further.
Recast lassie as a cow, no, really a cow.
Quote
Let's say they made a Lassie adaptation. Except instead of a collie, they cast lassie as a cow. It's not an change to the integral core of the character, Lassie can still act like a dog and run around and save Timmy and shit. Does that make it an arbitrary distinction? No. Lassie is a fucking collie.



Are... are you calling black people cows?


If this forums had a smiley facepalming itself, I would have used it now.

Edit:  D'oh.. you edited your post the moment I posted mine.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 09:47:44 am by Ultimuh »
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bjlong

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Re: An african american spiderman.
« Reply #164 on: June 04, 2010, 09:46:31 am »

"The description doesn't say black, therefore white" doesn't sound very convincing to me.

If you "add black", it becomes more complicated? That's weird. By reading bjlong post, the first thing to come to my head is: it doesn't say "white" anywhere, could be anybody (the womanizing industrialist could be from Hong Kong for all I know). But apparently my brain is just wired differently, I don't assume everyone is white by default, and they can have blackness added or removed to them as a trait, like "really loves trains" or "enjoys playing golf" or "is a student".

I'm not saying that since race isn't specified, the character is automatically white. I'm saying that given the description, you get a image based on stereotypes that come from the standard American mindset, and that for both Iron Man and Spiderman, the stereotype is white. By going against the stereotype, you need to be careful you're not overcomplicating the character.

Both I and Grakelin pointed out why Spiderman will thematically change if he becomes black, unless race is completely glossed over. If race is completely glossed over, isn't that incredibly dishonest? If it isn't, then the character has to either get more complex, as we've pointed out, or change entirely. If it's the first one, then we're unhappy because the comic book characters have specific struggles tied with specific issues, and adding another issue to Spiderman (race) is probably too busy. If the theme changes entirely, why be Spiderman at all? The whole point of these legacy characters is that they have established struggles, trials, abilities and villains. You're only keeping about 1/2 of that, arguably the least important half.
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