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[Toaster]

Jokerman:  And you're not going to vote him for it?  (Or better yet, vote Lonewolf)

Jim:  No defense?  No excuses?

[Jim Groovester]

Jim:  No defense?  No excuses?

To what? To you? You laid out your suspicions. You asked me no questions. So I responded with what I thought was appropriate.

If you're referring to Jokerman-EXE's 'attack', please tell me you're not being serious. Jokerman-EXE is such incredibly obvious scum I didn't need to go out of my way to highlight it.

Because, I mean, the timing of it all is just so precious. He votes you, says absolutely nothing while Leafsnail and I are arguing, you change your vote, and tada! he changes his just like that. It's almost like he did exactly what I said he would do. Except for the moving his vote to the target of most convenience. I think he didn't do that just to spite me.

What else? Oh, well, if I had been dropping scum vibes all game, hell of a time to mention it now. What are these scum vibes, I'm wondering? He didn't elaborate.

Really, he's obvscum. Can't you see it? It's unfathomable if you can't.

Jokerman:  And you're not going to vote him for it?  (Or better yet, vote Lonewolf)

I have to wonder just exactly what the fuck you think you are doing. Don't invite the obvscum to join your wagon. He might just oblige. Let him make that decision on his own, and then let him take the heat for it.

[Toaster]

Honestly, yes, he seems very scummy to me.  However, I'm not sure where to fit him in my theory.

In any case, I just can't see Person as scum any more.  With four total votes on him with your motivation, there's little chance of it breaking unless I can get everyone else to agree with me.

[Jokerman-EXE]

I have to wonder just exactly what the fuck you think you are doing. Don't invite the obvscum to join your wagon. He might just oblige. Let him make that decision on his own, and then let him take the heat for it.

Exactly why I'm not voting you.

You're trying to bait me into something. Jim, I know for a fact that I'm not scum. I can't prove it to you because you have so much more experience than me, you're just going to turn anything I do into a scumtell. Whatever I'm doing, you're simply extolling as "scummy" and using it to crucify me in the eyes of the other less-experienced players.

You're the most diabolical kind of scum. If I wind up dying without being able to convince everyone of just how scummy you are, then I hope that you people will have the sense to listen to me and hang Jim next. I'm willing to stake my life on it.

[Jim Groovester]

Honestly, yes, he seems very scummy to me.  However, I'm not sure where to fit him in my theory.

Then your theory is wrong.

Don't fit the evidence to your theory, fit the theory to your evidence!

Forgive my attempt to interject humor, but really, if you think Jokerman-EXE is scummy but he can't be scum according to your theory, what good is your theory? Don't ignore your suspicions just to adhere to a theory. You'd be missing and ignoring things that would otherwise signal to you who the scum actually are.

In any case, I just can't see Person as scum any more.  With four total votes on him with your motivation, there's little chance of it breaking unless I can get everyone else to agree with me.

Then keep working.

But I've got my own theory and I'm going to convince everybody I can that it's the case. If this involves disproving your theory then that's what I'm going to do.

I have to wonder just exactly what the fuck you think you are doing. Don't invite the obvscum to join your wagon. He might just oblige. Let him make that decision on his own, and then let him take the heat for it.

Exactly why I'm not voting you.

You're trying to bait me into something. Jim, I know for a fact that I'm not scum. I can't prove it to you because you have so much more experience than me, you're just going to turn anything I do into a scumtell. Whatever I'm doing, you're simply extolling as "scummy" and using it to crucify me in the eyes of the other less-experienced players.

So your only recourse is to sit on your hands, do nothing and... flatter me? This is a very strange game.

If you want to show that you're town, why don't you go do town stuff? It'd be the first time this game.

You've got a terrible track record for towniness so far this game. Maybe it's because you're not town? Oh, what do I know. Nothing, obviously, to suspect such an upstanding townsman who just gave such a wholesome speech.

You're the most diabolical kind of scum. If I wind up dying without being able to convince everyone of just how scummy you are, then I hope that you people will have the sense to listen to me and hang Jim next. I'm willing to stake my life on it.

You must have missed the part where you're not in the lead for votes. Why are you talking like you're about to die? You're not about to die. Why are you willing to die? If you're town and you're willing to be lynched to prove a point.... isn't that a really bad idea? This is milo. You'd be losing a game to prove somebody scum. That's a terrible idea.

I find it funny how you imply that the game would continue with your death, however.

[Mr.Person]

Prod Bandages. It's time for me to be a dick about this. Put me up for yet another extension, too, because I refuse to let the game come to let the outcome of the game be decided by Bandages making a mistake.

What would I have to interact with Toaster about? How should I be interacting with him?

I've stated I think he's town. I don't have anything I want to ask him, so saying we're not interacting is basically a statement of fact.

Now I understand so much from... you know what, never mind. Just know that I learned something important about being upfront and open about thoughts because not saying them pisses the rest of the player base off.

So what exactly makes you think that Toaster is town? I do believe you've never said.

Not what I was saying at all.

Good scum know how to make reasonable arguments to justify their votes. Mr. Person in the last Vote Mafia showed that he knows how to play a very good scum game, so it's no surprise that his votes on Org and ToonyMan appeared to be well-justified at the time.

However, Mr. Person is hiding behind his arguments for those two votes as if their strength and validity are the only things determining whether he is suspicious or not. And that is simply not true, otherwise, why demand that I disprove his arguments first before attacking him on other things?

There are many reasons to suspect Mr. Person, and all I have to do to show Mr. Person is scum is bring those reasons to light, as I've already done. I don't have to play his game and prove his arguments false before I make any further attack.

There's more to consider when determining if someone is scum than just the reasons they use to vote. Obviously.

"Appeared" to be well-justified? You're implying they weren't while making no effort to prove that they weren't. So, do you think my arguments on Organd ToonyMan scumminess are right?

Let me get this straight. You think that I, as scum, jumped onto Org and ToonyMan because they were easy. That's fine. The problem is that actually happened and it doesn't prove a fucking thing about my alignment. Why should I have looked past Org and ToonyMan to find more scum? Their actions were scummy. They refused to change their actions. Nobody else really stood out. Voting for Org and ToonyMan at the time were the big obvious scum. Going after anybody else were, at best, small hard-to-notice mafia... and I would of just voted for Org and ToonyMan later anyways.

So since the argument was correct and me using the argument isn't fundamentally scummy, there must obviously be some facet that's making you think I'm scummy. You claim it's the laziness, I'm saying the laziness is very justifiable here. AFAIK, this is your only argument, and it sucks. You might probably have more, but they're buried a few pages back. Could you dredge them back up, please?

Org and ToonyMan were easy lynches because they were acting really scummy. If you had a problem with their lynches, you should of brought it up while they were still alive. You didn't. In fact, you voted for ToonyMan. So don't you dare try and attack me for "going after easy lynches" without first proving my arguments invalid. And it's too late, because even if you did poke a giant hole into my arguments, I couldn't change my vote at this point anyways.

I don't have to prove your arguments are invalid, I just have to show everybody how scummy you've been. The validity of your arguments and how suspicious you're being have a lot to do with each other, but you can be suspicious even with good arguments. And ultimately, how suspicious you are will get you lynched.

Case in point: You may have been right about ToonyMan and Org being scummy, but it's an awfully suspicious coincidence that you used the exact same justification and they both flipped town. Somebody might think you were going after easy lynches instead of people you said you suspected.

Like Jokerman-EXE. He's scum to you. But you've taken no action against him aside from strong words. Convenient.

Actually, it would of been scummier of me to NOT go after Org for the same shit ToonyMan did since it's the exact same shit! One wrong lynch is not going to make me rethink my logic. So wait, what the fuck about my argument makes you think I'm scum? And how could I of made the argument in a way that wouldn't be scummy?

And no fucking shit I'm not taking action against Jokerman, I'm already voting Lonewolf. Why are you trying to get me to change my vote?

So why did you vote to shorten the day? It's not like we're in a hurry or anything, the only reason to shorten is when the result of the day is obvious and unchangable. I'm ahead by one player vote. That's very mutable, especially since Bandages is voting me based on a mistaken view of how the game works.

I just answered this. I'm impatient. Also, I have an extra vote so you're a bit further in the lead than you think.

This is bad and you should FEEL bad. You're a self-centered asshole. You're forgetting about the rest of us. Specifically, me. I don't mind getting lynched for fucking up, but in this case, it would be me getting lynched because of another player's mistake and subsequent disappearance. Somewhat. Most of the lynch would still be me fucking up, but hey, I want to make sure everybody has their vote where they want it to be. And really, B12 mafia games already run really damn short to begin with. I think our day 3 mylo has been going on for what, only a week now? That's not too crazy. And besides, the first thing most of us are going to do once this game is over is go join a new one.

[Jim Groovester]

URRARGH.

I'll reply with more substance to your post later. But now I need to go to bed. First though, the many reasons I suspect you, as you asked.

1) Your town game sucks. It usually doesn't.
2) You voted for ToonyMan and Org for the same reason, saying that they were both acting.
3) You stated that Jokerman-EXE was scum at the end of Day 2. You completely forgot about him on Day 3 and voted for Lonewolf I.
4) You've been somewhat quiet this game.
5) You've been somewhat passive this game.

If you want specific evidence I will kill you, then myself.

You can assume that questions about these and your latest post will come tomorrow. If you feel a pressing need to respond to any of these on their own I cannot stop you, even though I know exactly what the substance of these responses is going to be because you respond to every attack and suspicion and question in the same way.

"You think that's scummy? What else was I supposed to do? You mean to tell me that is what you suspect me for? That's crap and you know it. Go back and find where I did any of that. How was I wrong about my vote? Don't say because they flipped town. Go disprove my arguments first." And so on. Same basic template, really, sort of like how every time webadict gets mad you can expect he'll bust out all the shortbus insults and how when Org is town and he's about to get lynched he'll start typing in CAPSLOCK.

And I'm not really looking forward to that. Not right now anyways. Maybe tomorrow.

Anyways, bed time. Don't think too harshly of me if I was careless in my sleepy state.

[Toaster]

Jim:  Re Jokerman:  A fair point.  However, I'm much more sure about Lonewolf.  I've suspected him for some time, and I am convinced he needs to hang today.  I'll figure out which of the other three (you, Bandages, Jokerman) isn't scum in the meantime.

Anyway, to review the case against Lonewolf:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1479413#msg1479413
In this post (and the next few) LW votes Person with an attack, then quickly changes his vote to Cript.  He never follows up on his attack on Person.

D2, when pressed on this, gives this response:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1518936#msg1518936

The quote pyramid has pretty much all his D2 content, other than his vote on Org for being noncommittal.  That attack of his is barely pressed at all.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1526538#msg1526538
D3, his first post he jumps back to Person, with no reasoning.  He also posts a pointless defense of Jim.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1527085#msg1527085
Here he finally gives his (weak) reasoning.  Note toothless suspicion thrown on abc.

After that, he claims, posts twice with zero content, and that's it.

This is pretty much his whole posting history.  He's been trying to active lurk the whole game without drawing attention to himself.  His attacks are weak and his reasoning bad to nonexistant.  He needs to hang today.

[Bandages]

Prod Bandages. It's time for me to be a dick about this. Put me up for yet another extension, too, because I refuse to let the game come to let the outcome of the game be decided by Bandages making a mistake.

How is it a mistake if I think you're scum?

At this point, with the amount of circular arguments going on this game day, I don't think anyone's about to change their mind on their suspicions. I mean, anything's worth a shot, but I'm already fairly convinced you are the scum and I'm still working out who your partner is.

[Toaster]

Bandages, that's terrrible.  More than one person asked you why you said Lonewolf was confirmed town, and you completely ignore the question.  Please enlighten us, scumbucket.

[Bandages]

It's just a bit of metagaming, as well as some intuition. I cannot factually prove to you that Lonewolf is another town member, but the fact that he has a role that effects others positively, as well as the fact that he used it on random people. Call me paranoid, but I would think that a mafia would only use that role on themselves or their partner so they have that "OSHI-" buffer if things go south, or if they need to "ahlly-yoop" for the SLAM-DUNK on a townie.

Long story short, metagaming his role and how he's used it makes me think he's town.

:|

Scum...biscuit.

[Leafsnail]

And when Leafsnail's suspicions of you conveniently wither away and Jokerman-EXE continues his habit of vote-hopping to the target of most convenience, you should reconsider everything again.

That would be pretty suspicious of Leafsnail to do something like that, wouldn't it? He's been making a pretty big deal of you being scum. You can't just walk away after making all that rhetoric. But he will. Or he'll try to.

And Jokerman-EXE doesn't give a shit. He'll put his vote wherever. It will be as suspicious and transparent as always.

Fuck off.  Toaster is still obvscum for backing away from me.  You're still obvscum in every way imaginable (including this bizarre non argument here).

I see no possible way you can declare MP either "passive" or "quiet".  And Mr.Person's response is perfectly fine - if his arguments were valid, then you've got nothing at all against him.  Therefore the onus is on you to show why they weren't, and explain why you didn't mention it until you needed to undermine him.

[Jim Groovester]

LET'S DO THIS

So what exactly makes you think that Toaster is town? I do believe you've never said.

He's hunting and has been hunting. I don't think he's going after people out of ease or convenience. I believe that he holds his suspicions genuinely. He's been active and aggressive in finding scum.

Satisfied? It's a little vague, but that's because I'm not trawling through every post of his looking for town tells. I reserve that effort for finding scum tells.

And before Leafsnail and Toaster get their panties in a bunch about how I'm buddying Toaster, remember that I was asked and I answered, like pretty much every time I said Toaster was town.

This is bad and you should FEEL bad. You're a self-centered asshole. You're forgetting about the rest of us. Specifically, me. I don't mind getting lynched for fucking up, but in this case, it would be me getting lynched because of another player's mistake and subsequent disappearance. Somewhat. Most of the lynch would still be me fucking up, but hey, I want to make sure everybody has their vote where they want it to be. And really, B12 mafia games already run really damn short to begin with. I think our day 3 mylo has been going on for what, only a week now? That's not too crazy. And besides, the first thing most of us are going to do once this game is over is go join a new one.

I'm sorry. Want a cookie?

Now that Bandages has come back and isn't going to change his mind, is that extension really necessary? You'd be extending the game for no reason, because for better or for worse everybody has made up their mind.

"Appeared" to be well-justified? You're implying they weren't while making no effort to prove that they weren't. So, do you think my arguments on Organd ToonyMan scumminess are right?

Let me get this straight. You think that I, as scum, jumped onto Org and ToonyMan because they were easy. That's fine. The problem is that actually happened and it doesn't prove a fucking thing about my alignment. Why should I have looked past Org and ToonyMan to find more scum? Their actions were scummy. They refused to change their actions. Nobody else really stood out. Voting for Org and ToonyMan at the time were the big obvious scum. Going after anybody else were, at best, small hard-to-notice mafia... and I would of just voted for Org and ToonyMan later anyways.

So since the argument was correct and me using the argument isn't fundamentally scummy, there must obviously be some facet that's making you think I'm scummy. You claim it's the laziness, I'm saying the laziness is very justifiable here. AFAIK, this is your only argument, and it sucks. You might probably have more, but they're buried a few pages back. Could you dredge them back up, please?

Alright, let's go in circles some more.

Your votes on Org and ToonyMan were safe votes. Their scumminess was well-recognized. If you were scum, nobody could fault your reasons for voting them. You wouldn't be very ambitious, but whatever, scum's gotta get through the day somehow. If you were town, you weren't working very hard.

If you had done this just once, it would have been undetectable and the strength of your position would be paramount. However, you weaken your argument when you use it twice, and when you are wrong both times.

By your own admission you were lazy with your other scumhunting (more about that in a second). So let's fill in the blank here: A player who only votes safe targets, uses the same justification for both, is wrong about both, and is otherwise lazy with his scumhunting is a player who is likely _____.

If you put scum in that blank then you're being honest, and you understand why I suspect you. And maybe we might actually get somewhere with these endless arguments. If you put town in there, then you're lying, and I hope you're looking towards arguing with me through the rest of the game because that's what's going to happen.

Actually, it would of been scummier of me to NOT go after Org for the same shit ToonyMan did since it's the exact same shit! One wrong lynch is not going to make me rethink my logic. So wait, what the fuck about my argument makes you think I'm scum? And how could I of made the argument in a way that wouldn't be scummy?

And no fucking shit I'm not taking action against Jokerman, I'm already voting Lonewolf. Why are you trying to get me to change my vote?

It's not just your arguments, deliberately denseface! Will you stop trying to return the discussion to them? You're more than just the merits of your arguments.

So you basically just said you were lazy with your scumhunting, but luckily for you you're contradicting yourself. At the end of Day 2 you laid out pretty strong suspicions. You said Org, Pandarsenic, and Jokerman-EXE were scum. I've already hammered you enough about Org, so no reason to continue it here, and you suspecting Pandarsenic doesn't really bother me all that much, since I wasn't completely certain I could be sure he was a confirmed townie and he was being a lurky motherfucker anyway.

That leaves Jokerman-EXE. You said he was scum at the end of Day 2, but you did not follow up during Day 3. In fact, you completely forgot about him. So why did you say he was scum, and then completely ignore him all through Day 3 and vote Lonewolf I instead? Jokerman-EXE is not doing anything different, since he's still the same scumface he's been all game. What's going on there? If you haven't forgotten about him, why is Lonewolf I scummier than him at this point?

Fuck off.  Toaster is still obvscum for backing away from me.  You're still obvscum in every way imaginable (including this bizarre non argument here).

I see no possible way you can declare MP either "passive" or "quiet".  And Mr.Person's response is perfectly fine - if his arguments were valid, then you've got nothing at all against him.  Therefore the onus is on you to show why they weren't, and explain why you didn't mention it until you needed to undermine him.

Don't be angry scum.

You know how you're always harping about the chainsaw defense? Well, you're doing it to me now. Why you going out of your way to defend Mr. Person by attacking me, huh? Why does he need you to come to his rescue? What do you stand to lose if Mr. Person is lynched?

And a player's scumminess is only related to the arguments they use to justify their votes? Complete bullshit. Participation, aggression, boldness, follow-up. These things are just as important as "I am voting for X because of X reasons."

[SirBayer]

I'll get to you two eventually. I've been trying to but I've been occupied with playing Civ IV with my father.

Whu-really? You play Civ IV? So do I. I'll PM you about that.

Anyway, non-off-topic...

Unvote Leafsnail.

Right now, I'm calling it- scumteam is Lonewolf, Jim Groovester, and Bandages.

Why?  Many reasons.  To start with, see my recent (since near-end of D2) posts attacking Bandages and Lonewolf.  (Ok, don't disregard those.)

Next, they've been distancing fairly regularly, with weak attacks that they back off of after a few posts.  See examples starting here and here.  In particular, Jim says Bandages is buddying me, then Jim goes on to buddy me all day today.  It's been niggling at me that it's happening, but now I see it for what it is.

Oh, hey. Guess when this comes out? After Leafy points it out. Reactionism to the max, my toasty friend.

Here's the crux of the matter- they're all voting Person.  How they voted him is telling as well.  LW's first post of the day voted Person with no reasoning, and contained WIFOM with his conclusion that Jim was town.  Jim's reasoning is Person being in on both D1 and D2 mislynches, and that he didn't vote right away (at mylo, no less.)  Bandages' reasoning is entirely based on his assertion that LW is confirmed town, and Person was still voting him.  Assuming LW's motivator claim is true, scum now holds 4 votes out of 9.  That makes it lylo, not mylo.  There's not a huge difference, but with that near-majority, all they have to do is split town a little bit, and they win the lynch and the game.

To win this, LW needs to hang today so scum can't give themselves an extra vote.

An interesting concept. A motivator in a scumteam. It all fits nicely.

Except for, y'know, the fact that that would completely break the setup.

If there are three scumbuckets and one of them is a motivator, then this setup is horribly, horribly broken. That's just ridiculous. You're assuming a shitty setup and I just can't accept that. Webadict does not make shitty setups.

On the other hand, I have very little in the way of leverage against your actual arguments. You may be on to something. I'll be paying a bit more attention to that side of the pond now.

Fuck you, Jim. You're a tunneling bastard and you're slowly starting to feel the pressure. You've been giving off scum-ass vibes all game and I'm glad someone else has noticed. Unvote Toaster.

Hey, look who's ignoring me!

Hello, scumface.

You ever gonna do anything?

Honestly, yes, he seems very scummy to me.  However, I'm not sure where to fit him in my theory.

In any case, I just can't see Person as scum any more.  With four total votes on him with your motivation, there's little chance of it breaking unless I can get everyone else to agree with me.

Oh hey, maybe it doesn't fit in your theory? You've got to be somewhere between 33% and 66% wrong. I agree completely with the Lonewolf thing, but... gawsh.

I have to wonder just exactly what the fuck you think you are doing. Don't invite the obvscum to join your wagon. He might just oblige. Let him make that decision on his own, and then let him take the heat for it.

Exactly why I'm not voting you.

You're trying to bait me into something. Jim, I know for a fact that I'm not scum. I can't prove it to you because you have so much more experience than me, you're just going to turn anything I do into a scumtell. Whatever I'm doing, you're simply extolling as "scummy" and using it to crucify me in the eyes of the other less-experienced players.

You're the most diabolical kind of scum. If I wind up dying without being able to convince everyone of just how scummy you are, then I hope that you people will have the sense to listen to me and hang Jim next. I'm willing to stake my life on it.

So you're... not voting him because he'll turn it into a scumtell?

Oh God, this is a man breaking town. Fuck. Fuck me.

I understand your frustration, Joe, but turning around, ignoring it, and pretending like it isn't happening doesn't get you anywhere. You know how I handle it? I get mad. I get so furious that I have to prove them wrong, and then I just attack with whatever's on hand. It works.

Try it instead of just sulking off.

So. Unvote Jokerman-EXE. I've been wrong and I apologize. That said, I obviously need a new target.

And I'm thinking... Leafsnail. This is a gut feeling sort of thing, and as I have shown above, I've very little evidence on the matter. I, however, have a few reasons.

1. The gut thing. Durh.
2. Coordination with Mr. Person's attacks. No, you're not saying the same thing, and no, I'm not convinced he's scum, but I'm not convinced he's not either. Furthermore, I get this feeling like you're dragging at Jim Groovester because he's been one of the big players in this game - one of the loud folks. You're trying to hit big, noisy targets.
2.5. Oh hey, upon review, you're defending each other. Now ain't that interesting? Defending each other from a noisy player... wonder what you're trying to accomplish?
3. You've made a point of avoiding interaction with this fellow attacker of yours. There hasn't been any acknowledgement, even, that the other one is making advances. There hasn't been any discussion about this theoretical scumbucketitude, and I'm starting to think that you're purposely avoiding it.
4. Your insistence that Jim is "obvscum" despite the fact that you're trawling deep and interpreting more into it than an English professor into Catcher in the Rye. <(Terrible book.) I see a lot of arguments, but I don't see a lot of...

I was going to say I had some question about these arguments, but then I did some quick review, and changed my mind. Given that Ablacutter was putting off vague scumtells at the beginning, it's not so far-fetched that you've picked up a scum game here, Leafy.

[SirBayer]

Upon review: Point 3 is irrelevant given point 2.5. In fact, Point 3 is factually inaccurate and the product of a retarded, quickly-hammered out post. I apologize; I just returned from Lake Tahoe, my neck feels like it has been attacked by anthropomorphisized arthritis, and I slept very, very little last night. I'll... come back to this and make it not suck tomorrow. I'm really, really sorry.