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[SirBayer]

My thoughts have turned down a fairly WiFoMy path due to Pandar's death.

Fact:  Jim outed Pandar as a reasonably confirmed towny yesterday.
Fact: Pandar died last night.

Assumption: Scum killed Pandar so that town power roles wouldn't support him.

Would scum Jim out Pandar prior to killing him?  Would town Jim out Pandar at all?

I believe that Town Jim would out Pandar in order to openly support him without what would otherwise look like covert buddying.  I believe scum Jim would not out Pandar, and would instead kill him quietly before anyone else realized what he had.

I know those statements are laden with WIFOM, but they're what my reasoning ultimately boils down to, and they're why I believe Jim is town.

Hello, Lonewolf.  I have two questions for you.

1.  Are you having fun?

2.  Who do you suspect, now that you were wrong on Org?

1. Indeed I am.

2. Mr. Person is back to my #1 pick for scum, though I would like to hear Jokerman's defenses and I pretty much have no read on Abcu or Bandages.

Speaking from inexperience, is MyLo grounds for a roleclaim?

I find it immensely, immensely suspicious that you feel the need to roll all this bullcrap around just to say "Hey, guys, check it out, John Gravestore is a townie!"

Defensiveness of yourself is bad, but defensiveness - before accusations - of someone else is just pretty damned awful.

That said - MyLo isn't roleclaim time yet, I think. But god only knows that I'm rusty enough to forget a detail like that.

[Lonewolf I]

I should have added:  Why are you suspecting Person?  Why aren't you grilling him?

I wanted to check up on my other games of Mafia first, because this one is the only one that I feel I need to reread before I start making accusations.  Rereading now.

[Jokerman-EXE]

Jokerman-EXE.

YOU want to hear from ME?

Go to the last post on the last page, lazy-ass. You've got some explaining to do.

Really, dude?

You say that I'm scum because:

1. I respond when someone asks me for my opinion by, imagine this, giving my opinion? Weakest "attack" ever.

2. You imply that I'm scum because I came back into the game when someone pointed out my lurking. When you, of all people playing, know how busy I can get and how long I can be away from the computer. Really?

3. I vote a player that is being honestly scummy, and you think that's a tell. Toony was being a scumtastic retard and you know it.

4. Length of time between posts. See #2...and then see your own goddam posting this game. You've done the same thing.

5. You say I've been defensive by responding to the questions posed to me! Mr.Person explicitly asks me questions and when I answer them, that's supposed to be a tell? You feel the need to grab onto every little thing, don't you? What are you trying to hide?

SirBayer is scum that's trying to hide himself. He's grabbing at everything I do and trying to twist it into a scumtell that isn't there, and he's being shifty. If you find Lonewolf so immensely suspicious, then why are you not pressing an attack there? And why wouldn't MyLo be the time for roleclaiming? Because doing so would give you away as scum, no doubt.

[Lonewolf I]

So ToonyMan, why are you pretending to scumhunt by tunneling Jim Groovester with useless shit and claim you're helping?

...You're defending Jim now.

You're not actually attacking, you're deflecting. Before you were just being stupid, but this is actually scummy. Any reason you're trying to pass blame on from yourself to Jim and/or Cript?

One count of bandwagoning, plus a fairly passive game overall.  Also, abculatter jumped right on to the bandwagon nine posts later with absolutely no explanation, possibly following your lead.

[Bandages]

I know those statements are laden with WIFOM, but they're what my reasoning ultimately boils down to, and they're why I believe Jim is town.

So, if I'm interpreting this passage correctl... Are you saying that you are using fallacious logic to buddy another player?

[Mr.Person]

One count of bandwagoning, plus a fairly passive game overall.  Also, abculatter jumped right on to the bandwagon nine posts later with absolutely no explanation, possibly following your lead.

That's a pretty horrible attack when the best things you can bring forth are that other people are also voting for my vote target and that another player jumped onto my vote target after I did.

You can't claim I'm scummy because of things that other players have done or will do. Attack me for the things I do.

Spoiler: Non-game related aside (click to show/hide)

I think I should probably apologize to ToonyMan real quick. Not for voting for you or whatever, but I think you might think I think you're a horrible player who doesn't know anything or you shouldn't play mafia or whatever. That's not true. You're a good player, you just fucked up this game. It happens, I just know that you can do better than this game. Just talk more, that would help out immensely.

I mean, when all you do is pop in and go "haha, PLAYER X is scum!" for a whole day, it's hard to take you seriously. And it doesn't help you to find scum, either. And it doesn't leave the rest of us with much to decide your alignment. It's lose-lose all around. If you're scum, it sure as hell doesn't hide you or deflect away suspicion or anything useful. I guess the point is, take things more seriously and try to explain things in a way the rest of us can follow. Dumb it down, we're all morons!

[Jim Groovester]

My thoughts have turned down a fairly WiFoMy path due to Pandar's death.

Fact:  Jim outed Pandar as a reasonably confirmed towny yesterday.
Fact: Pandar died last night.

Assumption: Scum killed Pandar so that town power roles wouldn't support him.

Would scum Jim out Pandar prior to killing him?  Would town Jim out Pandar at all?

I believe that Town Jim would out Pandar in order to openly support him without what would otherwise look like covert buddying.  I believe scum Jim would not out Pandar, and would instead kill him quietly before anyone else realized what he had.

I know those statements are laden with WIFOM, but they're what my reasoning ultimately boils down to, and they're why I believe Jim is town.

Your assumption is wrong. Scum killed Pandarsenic because the scum can't have a confirmed townie running around during milo, even one as useless as Pandarsenic made himself. But you know this already, don't you?

Don't wildly speculate about my motives when anybody could have taken a moment of effort and reasoned that Pandarsenic was a confirmed townie. Don't you think I might've done it not so that I could openly support Pandarsenic, but rather, that the town would have a confirmed townie? I couldn't give two shits about Pandarsenic, but a confirmed townie means one less person I have to worry about being scum.

More later when I have time.

[SirBayer]

Jokerman-EXE.

YOU want to hear from ME?

Go to the last post on the last page, lazy-ass. You've got some explaining to do.

Really, dude?

You say that I'm scum because:

1. I respond when someone asks me for my opinion by, imagine this, giving my opinion? Weakest "attack" ever.

Perhaps you haven't really worked out how this "Mafia" thing works, Joe. When you do nothing but give opinions, you're not scumhunting. If you're not scumhunting, you're scum. You and I both know you know that.

2. You imply that I'm scum because I came back into the game when someone pointed out my lurking. When you, of all people playing, know how busy I can get and how long I can be away from the computer. Really?

Reactionism is a well-documented scumtell. The fact that you show it, both in your posting and now in your vote, gives away your alignment.

And using the real-world stuff as an excuse is... shifty business. You have plenty of time for DFO, apparently.

3. I vote a player that is being honestly scummy, and you think that's a tell. Toony was being a scumtastic retard and you know it.

Jumping the bandwagon on someone "scumtastic" is not really helpful. Especially when, as I point out yet again, the man flipped town. If he's a scumtastic retard, then you're a single-celled scum organism.

4. Length of time between posts. See #2...and then see your own goddam posting this game. You've done the same thing.

Oh have I? So you claim to be reading my posts earlier but now you're apparently not. Jeez, when was the last time I posted? OH HEY, LIKE YESTERDAY MAN

Stop making this so easy.

5. You say I've been defensive by responding to the questions posed to me! Mr.Person explicitly asks me questions and when I answer them, that's supposed to be a tell? You feel the need to grab onto every little thing, don't you? What are you trying to hide?

You're not just answering. It's that you're answering and doing nothing.

And grabbing onto "every little thing" is, of course, a pillar of goddamn scumhunting. As far as I can tell you're accusing me of scumhunting, which hardly seems like a crime.

SirBayer is scum that's trying to hide himself. He's grabbing at everything I do and trying to twist it into a scumtell that isn't there, and he's being shifty. If you find Lonewolf so immensely suspicious, then why are you not pressing an attack there? And why wouldn't MyLo be the time for roleclaiming? Because doing so would give you away as scum, no doubt.

Lonewolf hasn't got shit on your for suspiciousness.

And gee, for one who's so antsy about "every little thing," let's see who dragged a little bit of my Mafia-manners into the mud.

Oh, and hey - are you looking for a roleclaim? Role-fishing, too. Looking for a target to hit tonight. You make this so easy, Joe.

[Toaster]

So ToonyMan, why are you pretending to scumhunt by tunneling Jim Groovester with useless shit and claim you're helping?

...You're defending Jim now.

You're not actually attacking, you're deflecting. Before you were just being stupid, but this is actually scummy. Any reason you're trying to pass blame on from yourself to Jim and/or Cript?

One count of bandwagoning, plus a fairly passive game overall.  Also, abculatter jumped right on to the bandwagon nine posts later with absolutely no explanation, possibly following your lead.

Congratulations.  You (claim to) go through the whole thread, and this is the best you can do.  Your attack is limp, and you're not actually pushing him.  Scum.

That's enough time spent on you.  Time to find out who your scumbuddies are.


...


Ok, got it!


Jokerman:  You started off this game extremely passive, then have only become active under pressure.  Changing your playstyle under pressure is scummy.  You've said that your limited time affects your participation.  Why couldn't you put in the time you've put in lately earlier in the game?


Bandages:  Several things on you.  You've claimed your role is affecting your voting.  Somehow, I think that's crap.  You've put out a few wimpy attacks and tried to buddy several times.  You put a real attack on Jim, but for the Toony fiasco- a weak reason. You've also been dropping WIFOM lately.  Today, you've done this:

I know those statements are laden with WIFOM, but they're what my reasoning ultimately boils down to, and they're why I believe Jim is town.

So, if I'm interpreting this passage correctl... Are you saying that you are using fallacious logic to buddy another player?

Is this really the best you can do D3?  Who do you suspect, and why?  Include people besides Lonewolf.

[Bandages]

Bandages:  Several things on you.  You've claimed your role is affecting your voting.  Somehow, I think that's crap.

Duly noted.

You've put out a few wimpy attacks and tried to buddy several times.

Evidence? Quotes? Anything?

You put a real attack on Jim, but for the Toony fiasco- a weak reason.

I apologize, but I do not see how attacking someone on the basis of them essentially being the hammer that drove the nail through a townie is "weak".

You've also been dropping WIFOM lately.

Again, I apologize, but we must be playing different games. Perhaps if you'd be willing to provide a single scrap of evidence towards any of your claims, I could take you seriously.

Today, you've done this:

I know those statements are laden with WIFOM, but they're what my reasoning ultimately boils down to, and they're why I believe Jim is town.

So, if I'm interpreting this passage correctly.. Are you saying that you are using fallacious logic to buddy another player?

Is this really the best you can do D3?

Is questiong a player who is acting unbelievably scummy on the fact that he just admitting to both WIFOMing and buddying Day 3 the best I can do? Are you high?

Who do you suspect, and why?  Include people besides Lonewolf.

Lonewolf for reasons above.

Toaster for incredibly hypocritical arguments that you seem to be pulling from some fantasy mafia game that only you can read. I mean, honestly in that last post you attack me for "weak attacks", but not until after you drop your own attack on Lonewolf with "Your attack is limp... okay bye".

Jokerman-EXE and SirBayer have been arguing back and forth all day with arguments that seem to follow a "You said I said that you said I said" logic. I'm getting the creeping suspicion that they might be the two scum pretending to have an argument to avoid suspicion before both turning on the same town at the end of the day. I'm just following their back and forth for now, until one (or both) of them drop the scumsoap.

As for you, Toaster, would you be so kind as to answer the same question you just asked me, and in addition, answer this: You attacked me for a one line response to Lonewolf's self-described scummy attack this round, and yet YOU DIDTHE EXACT SAME THING. Why is my act of doing so scummy, and yours not?

[Toaster]

Sure, I can post some points.

Passiveness:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1483744#msg1483744
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1483895#msg1483895
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1484150#msg1484150  Especially this one
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1477835#msg1477835
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1481967#msg1481967
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1482036#msg1482036

Buddying:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1502204#msg1502204
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1502587#msg1502587

WIFOM:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1502587#msg1502587
I'll grant that this one isn't as strong a point against you, since it was in regards to a question that's a bit hard to answer without some wine.

Jim:
You really think Jim was more responsible for Toony's lynch than Toony himself?

D3 actions:
If he's so unbelievably scummy, you don't think it'd be worth your time to find another person to grill today?  Unbelievably scummy people tend to get lynched anyway.

Your suspicions:
All fair.  I'd like you to see you grilling Joker/Bayer if you think they're scummy rather than waiting out the attack, though.

You wanting me to answer the question I asked you:
You really don't think it was answered in my first post?  To recap, Lonewolf is very scummy and I found you and Jokerman occupying the next two spots on my scumlist after a reread.  I'll do you one better and post evidence on Jokerman when I'm done with you.

Your new question:
Because I've already attacked him today and yesterday.  That post is your opener on him.  (I'm ignoring RVS)

Also, my vote is staying on Lonewolf because I'm convinced.  The only way I could be considered dropping an attack is because I'm done with him.  If I see something redeeming, I'll reconsider, but my mind's pretty much made up.




As promised, Jokerman!

Posts with content on D1:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1484184#msg1484184
Content: Bandwagon vote

Day 2:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1505210#msg1505210  Admits passiveness
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1512866#msg1512866  Unlurks to vote a lurker.  I love this one.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1513051#msg1513051  Defensive bullshit

As the heat turns up:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58449.msg1513351#msg1513351  Content, but passive attacks

Next one needs a quote:

Mr.Person is being ohmyfreakinggod so goddam verbose. I've never seen so much writing from one person before. Maybe a scumtell, or maybe he's just really excited this round. Hard to tell. I don't want to say he's scum yet, but by no means do I think he's clear.

Being verbose would be a hilariously bad scumtell since you'd be lynching me for doing what everybody's supposed to be doing. But hey, whatever. Ignore me and try and find cookie-cutter scumtells. Ignore the fact that different players have different scumtells. Ignore context. Ignore the content of my posts like my thoughts and actions. Ignore that shit, you've gotta find the scumtells!

And either way, this post was totally useless. You just say "Mr.Person could be scum since he's talking". What purpose does this serve? The only thing I can think of is getting other people to think I'm scum.. but you didn't say you thought I was scum. You said I might be scum. So you're being passive, very scummy of you.

Okay, why are you being so defensive? At no point did I accuse you of being scummy for talking or anything. You're blowing it extremely out of proportion which, as far as I'm concerned, is the scummiest thing you've done so far. Someone asked me what I thought of the current players, and I thought you talked a lot. Period. You're the one turning this into a thing.

First Joker says Person's wordiness may be a scumtell.  When Person calls him on it, he says "At no point did I accuse you of being scummy for talking or anything."  That's straight up bullshit right there.  He then throws suspicion right back on Person for the "crime" of calling out Joker's crap.

This whole post of his is interesting, because it basically affirms that he's for lynching a lurker when there's plenty of other content out there for people to attack... and he's been lurking himself.

D3 he's been active, but as I said in my last post, he changed his style after being put under pressure.

[webadict]

Vote Count
------------------------
Toaster -
Lonewolf I - Toaster,
Mr.Person - Lonewolf I,
Jim Groovester -
Jokerman-EXE - Jim Groovester, SirBayer,
abculatter_2 -
SirBayer - Jokerman-EXE,
Bandages -

Not voting - abculatter_2, Mr.Person, Bandages,

Day ends on Wednesday 9 PM Central.

[Jim Groovester]

You can't claim I'm scummy because of things that other players have done or will do. Attack me for the things I do.

Okay.

Mr. Person, you voted for ToonyMan and Org for the following reasons:

It's not that ToonyMan is tunelling without evidence, it's that he's acting stupid. Key word there is ACTING. He's not actually stupid, he's pretending to be stupid so that people don't suspect him.

Look, Org knows enough to explain himself and generally not be an idiot. Yet for some reason here he is being an idiot. The only reason he'd do so is because he's acting. The only people who would want to act to not get lynched are scum. (And if he is town, lynch his stupid ass until he learns to fucking play the game.)

These look suspiciously exactly the same. SarBeyar pointed this out but he shouldn't have buried it in spoilers.

Further, you have yet to vote anybody today.

I find it difficult to believe that you could be town when 1) you vote for two townies that practically lynched themselves for the exact same reason, and 2) you don't find anybody else suspicious enough to vote, especially today during milo.

Ergo, you are scum.

Now, who are your teammates? Jokerman-EXE? Lonewolf I? abculatter_2?

I suppose there's a way to find out. Unvote Jokerman-EXE. Mr. Person.

Toaster, Bandages, SirBayer, since I think all of you are town, a word of caution. I won't try to stop you from making your attacks, but keep in mind that there are people who are trying to coast through milo unscrutinized. Don't forget about them in favor of attacking active people.

But basically, let's all lynch Mr. Person today. He's scum.

[SirBayer]

These look suspiciously exactly the same. SarBeyar pointed this out but he shouldn't have buried it in spoilers.

>:I

Toaster, Bandages, SirBayer, since I think all of you are town, a word of caution. I won't try to stop you from making your attacks, but keep in mind that there are people who are trying to coast through milo unscrutinized. Don't forget about them in favor of attacking active people.

But basically, let's all lynch Mr. Person today. He's scum.

While ignoring the vaguely suspicious buddying I could point out, I gotta say I think I've hit gold. I'll consider the Mr. Person thing, I kinda changed my mind about him after I went at 'im.

And Joe WAS trying to coast through. I grabbed him.

[Jim Groovester]

These look suspiciously exactly the same. SarBeyar pointed this out but he shouldn't have buried it in spoilers.

>:I

This is a dangerous game we play.

I'll stop if you will.

While ignoring the vaguely suspicious buddying I could point out, I gotta say I think I've hit gold. I'll consider the Mr. Person thing, I kinda changed my mind about him after I went at 'im.

And Joe WAS trying to coast through. I grabbed him.

Fuck buddying. We're going to lose if we can't pull our votes together to hit scum.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's milo. We might end up having lylo tomorrow due to vote mechanics, but it's a bad idea to count on that happening.