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[JT]

In response to Tormy, I think what he's saying is that magic will make things much, much easier, just as electricity would.  What's the difference between the two?

Both should be implemented as spartanly as possible, in my opinion.  I think electricity would be cool and I think gunpowder and primitive bombards and handgonnes would be cool, just as I think lightning bolts would be cool and I think fireballs and telekinetic spells and flame dart spells would be cool.  Both are pretty much exactly the same thing, just implemented in different ways.

For a game that did the balance between magic and technology (somewhat) well, see Arcanum.  You take Arcanum's average technology level and tone it back to the same as in one of the villages, and make the game predominantly about good old-fashioned manual labour and wind- or water-powered machines, and the gunpowder, magic, and manual labour become pretty much harmonious.

[ November 03, 2007: Message edited by: JT ]

[ravensword227]

Why stop at electricity?  Dwaves should be able to stamp out AK-47 rifles, grenade launchers and F-16 interceptor jets while the goblins are still researching the alphabet.  I think you guys need to play a different game...  Seriously.

[Sukasa]

Well, I agree that too much electricity/steam/etc. is not good, but there are a couple things I still think electricity is good for.

First off, nothing should *need* any one tech type or another beyond what's already been done.  IMO, we should be able to happily run screw pumps, axles, etc. off of EITHER an electricity supply, steam, magic, or good old fashioned axle power, whichever we want.  I do not like the idea of too many electric traps myself.  I do like the idea of electric lights.  Is there any reason why electric lights are bad?

Anyways, here's my complete list of things that I think electricty would be good to have for.

Screw pumps (makes miniaturization easier)
Lighting
Generators(to make electricty from axle power)
Switches, e.x. using a lever to control power from a windmill to a screw pump
^-via levers/pressure pads/etc
Motors
Perhaps one or two electric-only traps, just like one or two X-only traps for other tech categories (magic, steam, normal mechanics, etc.)
I know that some people will immediately say no to electric-only traps.  I now ask; what is your reason?  I see no reason why a player should not be able to.  By making plenty of non-electric traps, people who don't want to use electricty don't have to.  Note that in the last sentence, you can also replace "electricty" with "magic" or "steam" or whatever you want.
Also, if the need for air in deep caves is *ever* implemented, Electric Fans.

Objections/suggestions other than "no way!" without a reason, please

[BDR]

quote:Originally posted by JT:
<STRONG>In response to Tormy, I think what he's saying is that magic will make things much, much easier, just as electricity would.  What's the difference between the two?

Both should be implemented as spartanly as possible, in my opinion.  I think electricity would be cool and I think gunpowder and primitive bombards and handgonnes would be cool, just as I think lightning bolts would be cool and I think fireballs and telekinetic spells and flame dart spells would be cool.  Both are pretty much exactly the same thing, just implemented in different ways.</STRONG>

Quoting for truth.  It should be possible to play with as much or as little of either/both as you'd like even without touching the raws.

[Sheez]

JT got it right in one.

I am well aware of the things that magic can do Tormy. I've been playing D&D for almost 15 years now, I am well acquainted with the world shifting power that spells impart. However, technology does much of the same. What's the difference between teleporting magically and scientifically? What's the difference between a 'Burning Hands' spell and a flame thrower? Lightning bolt and an electricity throwing contraption? Very, very little. And that's my entire point. You could just as easily implement new and interesting things with a technological bent as you could with a magical one. Claiming that one is okay and the other isn't is silly. Arcanum would indeed be an excellent game to play to get a feeling for steampunk, or even the odd similarities between magic and technology.

Also,

quote: Why stop at electricity? Dwaves should be able to stamp out AK-47 rifles, grenade launchers and F-16 interceptor jets while the goblins are still researching the alphabet. I think you guys need to play a different game... Seriously.

This is a game in development. If we, as the testers and players of that game, are unable to express our opinions on it as it develops, then what is the point of these forums? Toady has his own vision, but he has always seemed interested in the ideas that his fans come up with. Also, you're overreacting. As..like..too many people have in this thread already. What is it that about technology that makes you assume that anyone who wants it is looking for automatic weapons, tanks, and modern age explosives? Technology had a history and development that has spanned the entirety of humanities own history and includes its own eras and periods. What is so wrong about wanting to use some of it? Really? Especially now that this release has whet our appetites with the ability to use wind and water power, to attatch and manipulate gears, and to alter our dwarves' environment with technology?

If worse comes to worse, I'll keep my water pumps and elaborate constructions and I suppose you can let your dwarves haul water uphill with buckets.

[Grek]

What would dwarfs use electricity for? The only two things that comes to mind are electrifying a metal floor as goblins cross it and a wizard making something like frankenstein with a lightning rod.

[MickEfinn]

All you need is a couple large slabs of Magnetite, tie em to a windmill and axle, and have it spin inside a large copper Barrel... hmmm....

[Capntastic]

Whoever said the Mesopotamians harnessed electricity needs to take into account that those jar batteries or whatever they found had barely enough voltage to be noticeable when putting both hands on it.   They were most likely a curious novelty, as I doubt they could be harnessed for any serious work even if dozens of the little buggers were wired up in series.   Even a big expensive modern day car battery is only used to create a tiny spark.

Water powered generators could deliver enough power to electrify stuff, but that's about the only thing I can come up with that it'd be useful for.

As for those making computers in DF, that's more of a metagame gimmick project type thing.

I'm getting a bit too verbose in this thread, but the bottom line is that clockwork stuff is nifty, and bellows are cool, but there's a level of complexity where stuff just becomes un-dwarven and cheesy gimmicky.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by ravensword227:
<STRONG>Why stop at electricity?  Dwaves should be able to stamp out AK-47 rifles, grenade launchers and F-16 interceptor jets while the goblins are still researching the alphabet.  I think you guys need to play a different game...  Seriously.</STRONG>

Sad but true. They should play a different game if they dislike the fantasy setting. We dont need some crap steampunk world. This is DF.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Sheez:
<STRONG>JT got it right in one.

I am well aware of the things that magic can do Tormy. I've been playing D&D for almost 15 years now, I am well acquainted with the world shifting power that spells impart. However, technology does much of the same. What's the difference between teleporting magically and scientifically? What's the difference between a 'Burning Hands' spell and a flame thrower? Lightning bolt and an electricity throwing contraption? Very, very little..</STRONG>

You STILL dont understand it, dont you? Its all about the GAME WORLD. We have trolls and dragons, we have even WIZARDS added now. This is a fantasy game, NOT steampunk, this is NOT ARCANUM or any crap like that.
Fantasy = magic.
I dont see that WHY should the concept of the game be changed from fantasy to steampunk. Majority of the people would surely prefer magic over a steampunk world.

[ November 04, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Lord_Daeloth]

quote: Not to mention that torches and slaves would be more in keeping with the game world than the equivalent 'steampunk' stuff. Not that I'm against the concept of electricity but I don't feel it belongs in the DF world. Magic, on the other hand...

Sorry, just quoting you because you were the last one to mention it   :p   It bugs me that people keep bringing up what would fit in the game-world and all that.  As far as I know, this is an alpha and really lacks any sort of story (Aside from TT's wonderful naratives, and I don't think those really ever give the feel of anti-tech).  So how can we say what fits or doesn't.

quote: It would be only acceptible, if we could turn electricity off in the raws. However in that case, electricity must only have some very minimal useage, like use it for a trap. That way if XY dont want to play with electricity wont be forced to use it, because there are other trap types as well for example.

Wait... what?  So, you're saying you'd be ok if electricity was on a toggle in the init, but if it was on it has to be... useless?

quote: You also didn't address my point that a lot of 'steampunk' stuff is superfluous given that torches and slaves would functionally be the same as electricity and robots.

Well, then slaves are superfluous because you can just assign extra peasants to do the work and torches are useless because you can see in the dark (in fortress mode at least).  Yeah, so some of the 'steampunk' stuff could be replaced with less high-tech alternatives and have essentially the same in-game effect, but its all about flavor.

Sorry to pick on all of the anti-tech people, but some have said that they would stop playing if it were added, and that just seems... wrong to me...  And I have to make one more comment to the magic people.  Ok, so tech sucks but magic is good, even though you could most likely do more off the wall things with magic (golems = robots)?

Personally I could care less.  If we are going by the idea that this is a fantasy world and needs to stay fantasy, then dwarves would be high-tech (well, higher-tech) compared to the other civs.  They would also abhor magic for the most part, preferring instead to use their wits and strength.  So tech would seem the natural progression eh?  That being said, I'm really hoping that Toady will break the mold and maybe give us a new kind of dwarf.  Well, maybe not new, but something that doesn't have to follow the set traditions.

Finally, the idea of having options in the init is awesome.  Going a little further, how about being able to turn on/off various techs/magics.  So we could have something like:

[STEAM:ON/OFF/DATE]
[ELECTRICITY:ON/OFF/DATE]
[FISSION:ON/OFF/DATE]  :p

[MAGIC_CONSTRUCTION:ON/OFF/DATE]
[MAGIC_ATTACK:ON/OFF/DATE]

etc...
Or maybe even break it down further and allow you to toggle individual techs/magics like turning on/off engines, robots, a-bombs, golems, and fireballs.  Just a thought, then everyone gets what they want.

Now feel free to tear me apart, lol.   :p

[Lord_Daeloth]

And I'm going to regret this, but why is everyone (glances at Tormy) getting so up in arms about this?  Yeah, it has trolls, but so does Shadowrun...  I don't want a Shadowrun game, I'm just point out that the races involved have nothing to do with how high-tech things can be.  The thing I especially love so far is that most of the people saying that they would be interested in seeing tech also say that they wouldn't really care if it never happened, but the anti-tech people seem insulted by the very idea of it ever being suggested, going so far as to threaten quitting the game.  It may be evil of me, but now I kinda hope that Toady throws in some minor tech just to say "Eff-you, this is my world, go ahead and quit".

This thread is getting ridiculous, haha!

[AlanL]

An idea, not sure if it's a good one:

A noble that improves things, in a general way.

Say, you have him make an axle that's nearly lossless. In game, this would just be an axle that takes 1 or 0 power per square. This could either be due to magically frictionless surfaces, or the axles being replaced by electricity-carrying wires. It depends on how you imagine it, since in the game, all it is is changing a number.

You could also maybe develop new facilities, like a facility that turns certain things into energy. This could be a crystal-powered magic device, or a coal power plant, depending on your play style. For the game, it would simply be (Develop building)- (n of X Material)->(Y energy for Z days).

Basically, use ambiguity and let imagination fill in the gaps. That way everyone can have at least a bit of what they want.

[ November 04, 2007: Message edited by: AlanL ]

[BDR]

I was going to have a longer post, but then I found some nicely relevant quotes (yes, they're from Armok 1, but since the development page for future stuff says that you ought to look there as well for more possibly implemented stuff, there you go) from this page:

quote:There might be shops that are analogous to the "Cyberpunk" cyber shops - they can cast mutation spells to give you claws, heightened senses, metal skin, whatever... sci-fi and fantasy are basically the same thing, anyway.

quote:Technology:  Certainly some technological differences are permissible in a fantasy setting. There can be stone age tribes and fairly complex medieval societies. In some universes, it may only be ancient races (elves, dwarves, etc.) that possess advanced technologies, while humans are relatively savage. Technology can change and improve within reasonable constraints. Once I make siege engines and some vocational equipment, I'll only be a stone's throw away from advanced machines, gunpowder, and all that. Later on, sci-fi/modern might be a permissible setting in the genre-atmosphere-plot system, but that would be a whole other Future page (although Zach, Alan, and I have toyed around with ideas for space empire games, urban games, etc. - all of them fairly complex. So this is a possibility.)

All said more reasonably and better than I could have.

[Sukasa]

quote:Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>

You STILL dont understand it, dont you? Its all about the GAME WORLD. We have trolls and dragons, we have even WIZARDS added now. This is a fantasy game, NOT steampunk, this is NOT ARCANUM or any crap like that.
Fantasy = magic.
I dont see that WHY should the concept of the game be changed from fantasy to steampunk. Majority of the people would surely prefer magic over a steampunk world.

[ November 04, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]</STRONG>

Hm, two thoughts came to mind.  The second one was, "Wait, what?"  Look, Tormy.  You are not the only player of DF.  Electricity is not steampunk.  Electricity will not make the game non-fantasy.  You seem to have a very narrow view of what DF `should` be and what DF `shouldn't` be.  The first thought was and it was imflammatory, "Good God, stop being a goddamn Tech-Nazi."

So yeah, you all just got a look right into my head.  Completely uncensored.

And I came up with another use for electricity: Heaters.  Great for maps where water would otherwise freeze; you just heat the water and it won't freeze within a small radius!