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[umiman]

I haven't personally seen any good Jarvans yet no, but I see his incredible potential. I mean, look at how much CC he has! And that damage. Crazy.

[umiman]

I've heard tell of scary rumours. Rumours that talk about Jarvan + Anivia + Fiddle + Katarina + Rammus.

Brr... gives me the chills just thinking about it.

[Pandarsenic]

Hmm, might give him a whirl, anything i should look out for, builds, tips, cheats and the like?

For jungling, go APen reds, Flat Armor Yellows, Blues of your choice (I use the MRes runes I have from my standard tank page), 0/21/9 Masteries. Quints are your choice.
Ghost/Smite or Flash/Smite unless you're bad. Either one is fine. I take Ghost/Smite myself, usually. Start at Blue Golem with Cloth Armor and 5 HP Pots. Level E (Ground Slam). Hit Golem, E immediately after. Second hit will do damage to your health. Pop your first potion and keep them running any time you don't have within 100 health of your max. Golem camp will give you level 2. Take W, pop it mid-swing against the big wolf and then do the same as you did to golem. Then again at Wraith camp, level your E after it. Same thing at Lizards then at Minigolems. Take Q. Go gank.

Mindmaker: Time is an incredibly important resource in a game and the time you spend going back for your Razor is basically wasted. I'm not explaining why your jungling policies are bad any more unless you demonstrate that you views of jungling are in any way connected to reality and are not the result of playing against terrible players (e.g. a Rammus you can counterjungle at low levels. No. Just no. No Rammus should let an Olaf counterjungle him unles he's a triple-digit-Elo badologist with a PhD in failure).

so fuck yeah i feed them till the end

Not cool.

[SalmonGod]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Epic game.  We were losing hard at first.  Everyone else wanted to surrender.  They had a Cho'Gath/Sion combo that would insta-kill anybody they caught unawares, and they spent the first 15 minutes of the game racking up tons of kills.  My wife (Anivia) is epic at backdooring, however, and I managed to get some Mundo defense built up.  I would stall at our towers with cleavers, fortify, and massive regeneration.  They couldn't get past me and Malphite.  Shen and Teemo just went squish whenever they got near anyone.  So as the two of us stalled, Anivia pushed lanes.  Eventually, they made this push against our 3rd mid tower that lasted like 5 minutes or so and allowed Anivia to push up their entire bottom lane, even getting a nexus tower before they all freaked out and left.  They fell apart after that.  They had to divide their numbers to ensure defense, which allowed us to win team fights.  It was still a long, slow match, but we would draw them out and take a structure here and there until finally we overwhelmed them at the nexus.

I haven't had a match like that in months.  They're so rare.  But they make all the bad ones almost worth it.

[Mindmaker]

@Pandar:
Everybods (except ww) goes back for their razor once they run out of potions and there are no creeps nearby. Why is it a waste of time, if it greatly increases your jungling speed?
And I don't have to prove anything to you. I'm never a weak link in my team, so I don't see your problem. I've tried both playstyles and the smiteless one works better for Olaf.

If you have him, I can link you a guide and you can try him yourself.

[Jopax]

The thing is, this was practice, so i was kind of expecting him to be new to GP, and you know he could have said that's cool but i already know that instead of calling me a moron.

[Pandarsenic]

I main 4 junglers of whom none go for a Razor. Rammus, Shen, Amumu, and Malphite (I don't actually own Malphite yet but he's my next purchase if I don't give in to going for Jarvan IV) all build basically defensively for their jungling. None of them want it, none of them need it, none of them are greatly helped by it.

However, on ANY jungler, if I go back before I've ganked successfully at least once, either I have failed my initial jungling run or the people I'm ganking for have screwing up bad enough that it's their own fault.

Going back for an early Razor is an artifact of the way things were when almost any jungler with one could solo dragon. If you have HP to stay in and you're going back when any lane is possibly gankworthy or you have either or both buffs running, you are making the wrong choice. If you don't have at least one buff running by the time you have 700 gold, you've made even worse choices.

[Mindmaker]

I've already adressed the points you're bringing here (again).
And yeah it makes sense to take smite on tanks, since their jungling power doesn't come from autoattacks and you'd only fuck up your build, if you took razor.

[Pandarsenic]

You haven't addressed those points, at all. You're just denying their truth which doesn't make them any less true.

I've thoroughly defeated all manner of junglers, including in Ranked games, with the power of smite and extensive warding.

The junglers who went without smite because they were deepsy - things like an ignite Shaco who doesn't extensively counterjungle, an Olaf who thinks he doesn't need Smite because with Vicious Strikes he ends with similar health either way, etc., were incredibly easy to annihilate. I even fought one poor Olaf who didn't realize I had Smitestolen his golem until several minutes later.

The ones with smite, I generally just used it better or got level advantage for stronger smites from doing my ganks and stealing their buffs over the first 12-15 minutes. Feeding a double kill to your team at bot lane after getting your mid a kill all before you head back for the first time not only nets your team the chance at a lot of tower damage, it also gives you and your team a hell of a level advantage. It also buys you time to ward the enemy jungle if their jungler covers a lane to guard the tower. The advantages you gain from smite grow almost exponentially.

Also, ward all you like, nothing you do will stop a Rammus who shows up with the golem at 800 health, bumps you, taunts you, ballcurls, hits golem, smites it, and then walks away. If he doesn't want to fight you, he doesn't even have to. He can smite while powerballing and abscond with your buff without batting an eyelash.

[Mindmaker]

You haven't addressed those points, at all. You're just denying their truth which doesn't make them any less true.

I have. You just don't bother reading.
It's a tradeoff. Jungling capabilities vs ganking capabilities.
My jungling is good enough, so your argument for smite being required is invalid.

[Sirian]

I can see razor being helpful on malphite, since he has aoe autoattacks. Then maybe upgrade to wriggles for a free ward, armor and some lifesteal.

(Then again, i never jungled so i don't really know)

[Bordellimies]

I can see razor being helpful on malphite, since he has aoe autoattacks. Then maybe upgrade to wriggles for a free ward, armor and some lifesteal.

(Then again, i never jungled so i don't really know)

His AoE splash is based on his attack damage and all that, but since madreds wont increase damage much, it won't help really.
The 15% chance to deal extra damage on hit is a on-hit effect so only on normal autoattacks it can be seen. Or mystic Shot/Parrrley.

[Sirian]

I can see razor being helpful on malphite, since he has aoe autoattacks. Then maybe upgrade to wriggles for a free ward, armor and some lifesteal.

(Then again, i never jungled so i don't really know)

His AoE splash is based on his attack damage and all that, but since madreds wont increase damage much, it won't help really.
The 15% chance to deal extra damage on hit is a on-hit effect so only on normal autoattacks it can be seen. Or mystic Shot/Parrrley.

I'm fairly sure that even though the description of Brutal Strikes says "for 30/38/46/54/62% of his Attack Damage.", it is not referring to the stat "Attack Damage" but to the actual damage inflicted by the attack. I think it works the same way as Tiamat, which by the way, i think, stacks with Brutal Strikes passive, and according to Phreak "It [Tiamat] works with Wriggle's procs, so I'm pretty sure it splashes everything that you would lifesteal from. So, crits and wriggles, but not bloodrazor."

I'll test it to make sure it works but i'm confident it does.

Edit : Ok so i tested it and it doesnt work, my bad :p
Hitting for 500 didnt splash more damage than when hitting normally. So it IS different from Tiamat and applies a different effect, good to know ^^
(i think that i was mislead by the inaccurate french traduction of the tooltip, stating that it splashes the damage of the attack)
I guess it also means that critical hits from malphite won't splash more damage than normal hits.

[Bordellimies]

I would like to know how many of you would be up to a 5 person premade with 5 tanks, and everyone takes Teleport + Revive as summoner spells.
When I did it for my first time, it was awesome.

Champions I'd consider tanks for the game:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Alistar
• Amumu
• Cho'Gath
• Dr. Mundo
• Galio
• Gragas
• Malphite
• (Maokai?)
• Mordekaiser
• Nasus
• Nunu
• Olaf
• Rammus
• Shen
• Singed
• Sion
• Sivir (not a real tank, but when built as a tank with some dmg, she can help pushing like mad)
• Taric
• Trundle
• Udyr
• Vladimir
• Zilean (Cooldown reduction and mana/manaregen via Soul Shroud and Frozen Heart and other tank items = holy fuck, the tanks refuse to die)

Possibly others, but they need to actually be viable when built tank. So no, tank Ezreal or tank Ashe, they don't work.

Everyone takes:

A tank or a tanky champion. Must be viable when built tank.
For summoner spells, Teleport and Revive.
Guardian Angel, Sunfire Cape, Frozen Heart, Force of Nature, Thornmail, Warmog's Living Armor, etc. Typical tank items.
Everyone picks their items depending on the enemy team, so if they have a Karthus, Fiddlesticks, AP ezreal, Cho Gath and a Twitch that build Bloodrazors, you don't stack armor.

Teleport and revive allow the tankteam to go defend a tower quickly if it is under an attack, or perhaps go push quick. Backdooring with tank Rammus + tank Alistar + tank Mundo = Towers will die.
The objective is not to gain kills, but to destroy enemy buildings and defend our buildings. If it stalls your jungling Amumu, just fuck it and defend the tower. If you miss that minion wave at bot Mordekaiser, it doesn't matter, since because of you we got the mid tower. Also, let the Ezreal escape Dr. Mundo, because otherwise they push bot lane too hard.


Anyone who is willing to play this way, let me know. Not today most likely, I don't think we have enough people for that (me and my friend TehWP are up for it most likely, so 3 guys needed) I'll be in NA servers and my username is Bordellimies, feel free to add me to friend if you want. But let me know that you were from here, will ya.


If you have someone else who isn't in that list who you'd want to play as tank, let me know who it is and why that champ is good when built tank.

[Jopax]

I'd be game, i can do Morde, Djoze on the NA servers