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[Kogan Loloklam]

I think it's time to go back and evaluate what Kobolds are in Dwarf Fortress based on observed behavior and the raws.

First up, the Ethics

Spoiler: Ethics (click to show/hide)

   [ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:PUNISH_EXILE]

   [ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:KILL_PLANT:ACCEPTABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:ACCEPTABLE]

   [ETHIC:ASSAULT:PERSONAL_MATTER]


   [ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:TREASON:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:SLAVERY:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:UNTHINKABLE]
   [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:UNTHINKABLE]

   [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:NOT_APPLICABLE]
   [ETHIC:OATH_BREAKING:NOT_APPLICABLE]
   [ETHIC:LYING:NOT_APPLICABLE]
   [ETHIC:VANDALISM:NOT_APPLICABLE]
   [ETHIC:TRESPASSING:NOT_APPLICABLE]
   [ETHIC:THEFT:NOT_APPLICABLE]

From this, we understand they still cannot talk, and that they have no appreciation for personal property.
They don't find killing their own members appropiate and exile any who do. Fighting is resolved with individuals. Probably their disputes are settled with fighting, but it is very rarely to the death.
Killing anything not a member of the "tribe" is acceptable. You can torture sapient beings, but only for fun and no other reason.
They do not make trophies out of living beings. They don't betray themselves and they don't enslave others. (Kobolds and Animal People are the only ones who have "Unthinkable" for both treason and slavery, and Animal People are currently copied from kobolds.)

So, with this simple understanding, we view their stats.

Spoiler: Stats (click to show/hide)

   [PERSONALITY:ANXIETY:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:TRUST:0:25:50]
   [PERSONALITY:ACTIVITY_LEVEL:50:75:100]
   [LOCKPICKER]
   [TRAPAVOID]
   [FLEEQUICK]
   [LIKES_FIGHTING]
   [UTTERANCES]
   [PHYS_ATT_RANGE:STRENGTH:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]               +
   [PHYS_ATT_RANGE:AGILITY:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]                   ++
   [PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]              +
   [PHYS_ATT_RANGE:RECUPERATION:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]           +
   [PHYS_ATT_RANGE:DISEASE_RESISTANCE:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]     +
   [MENT_ATT_RANGE:ANALYTICAL_ABILITY:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500]       -
   [MENT_ATT_RANGE:FOCUS:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500]                    -
   [MENT_ATT_RANGE:CREATIVITY:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500]               -
   [MENT_ATT_RANGE:INTUITION:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500]                -
   [MENT_ATT_RANGE:PATIENCE:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]               +
   [MENT_ATT_RANGE:MEMORY:0:100:200:300:400:450:500]                        ---
   [MENT_ATT_RANGE:LINGUISTIC_ABILITY:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]                        unattainable
      [MENT_ATT_RATES:LINGUISTIC_ABILITY:NONE:NONE:NONE]
   [MENT_ATT_RANGE:MUSICALITY:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]                                unattainable
      [MENT_ATT_RATES:MUSICALITY:NONE:NONE:NONE]
   [MENT_ATT_RANGE:EMPATHY:0:100:200:300:400:450:500]                       ---

From this we see that they have high anxiety, low trust, and high activity level. They like to fight and cannot talk well.
They are actually STRONGER than humans (then again, everyone is), they are the most agile creature, and are tougher than humans in most areas. Their ability to analize situations is lower than a human or elf's (significantly by dwarves), and they can't focus as well. They are more creative than a goblin, but less than humans or elves (significantly by dwarves). They have less intuition than dwarves or humans (significantly by elves) but more than goblins. They have the same amount of patience as a dwarf, which is greater than a goblin's by a little, and significantly more than a elf's. They have the worst memories, and no linguistic or musical ability. They have very little empathy.

Putting it alltogether, we have creatures that not only can't talk, but don't even really understand the concept of patterns that provide communication. They probably aren't capable of remembering anything so complex, and therefore they are organized with bodylanguage alone. They have a packish mentality where they are constantly fighting for dominance amongst themselves, but usually stopping short of death. They don't seem to think themselves in the position of their victims, and find the "game" of torture enjoyable. (they probably torture each other as part of their "dominance" competitions). They have no sense of personal property and use what they have, but only if it is useful. They disdain anything that doesn't appear to be useful right away (which might be why they don't ever develop audible pattern recognition).

It IS possible though that Kobolds are deaf. If they are deaf, it would explain their lack of music and intelligible language.


So, a group of wolfish individuals who inflict pain for dominance and take anything that seems useful.
Thoughts on my opinions?

[Holy Mittens]

You can torture sapient beings, but only for fun and no other reason.

It's not that they CAN'T do it, it's rather that they wouldn't think of doing it. I know Unthinkable traditionally has the stigma of meaning "It is horrible to think of" but in this case I believe it actually means "incapable of thinking of". Kobolds simply would not think about torturing other beings for any reason except because it's fun.

Putting it alltogether, we have creatures that not only can't talk, but don't even really understand the concept of patterns that provide communication. They probably aren't capable of remembering anything so complex, and therefore they are organized with bodylanguage alone.

It's not that they cannot talk. It's that they have no language. Their language is solely a series of meaningless grunts and whistles that are closer to animal calls than a real language. It makes sense to the kobolds and someone who studied kobolds could probably pick out what each chirp means in a general sense. They have the [UTTERANCES] tag, after all, so they obviously make sounds.

[Kogan Loloklam]

It's not that they CAN'T do it, it's rather that they wouldn't think of doing it. I know Unthinkable traditionally has the stigma of meaning "It is horrible to think of" but in this case I believe it actually means "incapable of thinking of". Kobolds simply would not think about torturing other beings for any reason except because it's fun.

I don't understand the difference between can't do it and not being able to think of it.

It's not that they cannot talk. It's that they have no language. Their language is solely a series of meaningless grunts and whistles that are closer to animal calls than a real language. It makes sense to the kobolds and someone who studied kobolds could probably pick out what each chirp means in a general sense. They have the [UTTERANCES] tag, after all, so they obviously make sounds.

They have no linguistic capability. That makes me think that their chirps would be similar in nature to dog barks, if even that. What "[MENT_ATT_RANGE:LINGUISTIC_ABILITY:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]" really means could change the view here, but if I were to arbitrarily assign a number to a dog, I'd give them at least a 10, since they can learn commands. I'd say that it is possible they don't have the ability at all, expecially when backed up by the "[MENT_ATT_RANGE:MUSICALITY:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]" stat.

[Gemini476]

It's not that they CAN'T do it, it's rather that they wouldn't think of doing it. I know Unthinkable traditionally has the stigma of meaning "It is horrible to think of" but in this case I believe it actually means "incapable of thinking of". Kobolds simply would not think about torturing other beings for any reason except because it's fun.

I don't understand the difference between can't do it and not being able to think of it.

I think he means that, instead of merely considering it unacceptable, cannot even imagine torturing others for any other reason.

Makes sense, what with not having any language or punishments other than exile.

[Tabithda]

That is a very interesting study you have here. I would not say that they take only what they find useful however, if the amount of -puppy leather rings- and -puppy bone amulets- that have been stolen from me are any indication. Also, you say that:

They are actually STRONGER than humans (then again, everyone is), they are the most agile creature, and are tougher than humans in most areas.

That is not exactly true, however, as it is important to remember that they are smaller than dwarves, which mean that they are actually weaker than humans. Here is what Toady said on the matter in the creature_standard.txt:

Attributes for dwarves are still described in terms of the median value below, but the actual game effects are altered according to the raw numbers.  The numbers are different percentile values.  1000 is the human median for all attributes, so dwarven strength, for instance, has a higher median of 1250, although they suffer from their smaller size.

I have bolded the important part. Based on what he said, we can see that although they are stronger than there size would suggest, they are still weaker than humans are.

[EyeOfNundinate]

Where did you get...

From this, we understand they still cannot talk, and that they have no appreciation for personal property.

There is a reason why not applicable is used.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Attributes for dwarves are still described in terms of the median value below, but the actual game effects are altered according to the raw numbers.  The numbers are different percentile values.  1000 is the human median for all attributes, so dwarven strength, for instance, has a higher median of 1250, although they suffer from their smaller size.

I have bolded the important part. Based on what he said, we can see that although they are stronger than there size would suggest, they are still weaker than humans are.

Yes, this is true, and the Kobold's median strength is 1250, the same as dwarves. Good point on the size issue though. I guess that would make an ant's strength value equal to 5000?

12.5*6=strength Dwarf =75
10.0*7=strength Human =70
10.0*6=strength Elf =60
12.5*6=strength goblin =75
12.5*2=strength kobold = 25
(the first number is the strength median divided by 100, the second is the size divided by 10000)
So yea, Kobolds are significantly weaker.

Where did you get...

From this, we understand they still cannot talk, and that they have no appreciation for personal property.

There is a reason why not applicable is used.

I got it from the "Not Applicable" when it comes to theft and the communication skills. I assumed that it was saying that they didn't have the ability to consider those actions (any form of talking or thinking about what theft means)

[EyeOfNundinate]

N/A or n/a is a common abbreviation for Not Applicable   or Not Available, used to indicate when information in a certain   field on a table cannot be provided because it does not apply to a   particular case in question.

Hmmm, maybe it is all together irrelevant, and void.

[ungulateman]

They're still Cutebolds to me.

[Sensei]

N/A, or Not Applicable: The armor modifier of helium, the damage modifier of a tree, and whether or not a dwarf's windshield wipers are running.

[Kobold Troubadour]

It IS possible though that Kobolds are deaf. If they are deaf, it would explain their lack of music and intelligible language.

Mmm, It's probably more like they can't fully comprehend or understand what "music" is, and to them it's more like they're just odd sounds with different beats and such and that's it.

Though there are exceptions...

[Dakk]

Your avatar disagrees.

Anyway, Kobolds have (had?) the utterances tag, which means that. while having no defined language, they communicate using grunts and similar noises, much like animalmen (?). Elves can talk to animalmen in adventure mode, but I'm not sure if they can talk to kobolds aswell.

[nil]

I've always understood [UTTERANCES] as referring to a sort of private language that's always in flux.  So while kobold's speech is probably simple, and outsiders will never have the context to understand it, it still works as a method of communication between members of the same band.

[Jualin]

Spoiler: Concerning torture (click to show/hide)

I think he means that, instead of merely considering it unacceptable, cannot even imagine torturing others for any other reason.

Makes sense, what with not having any language or punishments other than exile.

I view it slightly differently. I think they cannot imagine torturing people for reasons other than entertainment because they do not have a basic level of sympathy. They can feel pain and whatnot but they cannot imagine that another creature could.

As such, when they torture another creature they get a sense that the creature is making unusual noises or moving in an unusual manner, which to them might be a little bit funny or amusing. Something mildly surprising to keep them interested in their daily lives.

If they use torture at all to establish dominance, the actual state of dominance is probably disconnected in the minds of kobolds from the torture. If anything, torture is probably viewed as a perk of being the one on top and not a method of getting there. It still probably serves to keep the rest of the pack in line, though.

Spoiler: Concerning kobolds as groups (click to show/hide)

On a different tack, their ethic about killing an entity member raises a few question for me. The kobolds obviously have some rough idea that they are part of a group, or else there would be nothing to exclude a murderer from (being their only method of punishing murderers). But what exactly is the group?

Since treason is unthinkable to them, there must either be an incredibly high taboo against treason, but unless they have a well developed system of language they have very little means by which to communicate the idea of that taboo. Even so, by default they have very little trust in each other which would presumably make them more liable to individually betraying a common theme or idea if there was any. As such, they probably only gather together for personal reasons.

Seeing as they have no concept of personal property and the most significant interactions with kobolds is when they steal stuff, that is probably the reason they band together. When one kobold steals something every kobold in the group believes they are exactly one shiny thing richer. Additionally, stealing from their point of view is probably a lot more like "securing shinies".

Going back to why they exclude kobolds that have murdered from the "group", it would thus be for entirely utilitarian purposes: this tool has ruined another tool, so I cannot receive shinies at the same rate. The fact that it has ruined a tool means that it could ruin another. Hence, they tool is no longer part of the toolbox. The reason why the kobold is not killed outright in response does not make much sense to me, though. But from a 3rd person standpoint it makes some sense: if a kobold executed another kobold in retribution the same utilitarian arguements could apply to the kobold that executed the first murderer. It does not explain why exile is a absolute rule, though.

[Greiger]

I agree with the 'securing shinys' bit.  They like thing because they are shiny and take it so it can be shiny where it is easier to admire the shiny.

As for the exile bit I kinda figured for the kobolds it's kinda close to a shun dealio.  With weapons I figure kobolds are capable to hunting larger game, and when somebody does kill something edible all the kobolds come out to eat it.  Not like a single kobold could eat all that himself. I imagine that the violator is driven away from the food if he comes to get some.  And even if he scores a kill himself, he is driven away from his own kill if found.  Forcing him to exile himself to survive.

They otherwise ignore the kobold and that's sorta like a shun thing.  But if it was a shun instead of an exile they would probably leave the shunned kobold's kill alone instead of stealing it from him.  Unlike an exile a shunned kobold would still be able to hunt in the area, he would just be driven away from kills made by others.