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Happiness! [Security]

26 (31%)

Freedom! [Liberty]

58 (69%)

Total Members Voted: 84

[HAMMERMILL]

That is not taking it to extremes, or at lest how you say it. It is only taking the opposite of what you have decided is the correct answer to the extremes.

Not so. If I wanted to take the concept of total freedom to the extreme I'd suggest that you'd be some sort of omnipotent god with the freedom and ability to do anything but you cannot take joy out of anything you do, infact, your mear existance is unbearable miserable.

But that example is stupid, because nobody can become a god and nobody can have absolute freedom either.

In realistic, mortal terms is what I base my decision on. Rather be free then confined.

[Realmfighter]

This is a stupid debate.

Your arguing which of two wildly variable ideas is better.

[Criptfeind]

As but to take no freedom to that extreme you would need more than to be strapped into a chair for your entire life.

Being god is not the opposite of being strapped down.

[HAMMERMILL]

This is a stupid debate.

Your arguing which of two wildly variable ideas is better.

Yeah it is stupid, but its what highly educated people sit and stroke their beards and write 300 page thesis essays against the flaws of whatever side they want to stick to.

What the argument here is: in general terms, with both the extreme and more sane and more loose degrees of either interpretation of the original question, which do you think is the superior quality?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Absolute Freedom, Absolute Happiness, and Absolute Truth are all impossible to accomplish, and thus shouldn't factor into this debate.

[Criptfeind]

Absolute Freedom, Absolute Happiness, and Absolute Truth are all impossible to accomplish, and thus shouldn't factor into this debate.

So very true.

That "God" would have less freedom than the guy in the chair.

I have to go now tata.

[HAMMERMILL]

Absolute Freedom, Absolute Happiness, and Absolute Truth are all impossible to accomplish, and thus shouldn't factor into this debate.

Yeah, basically. In terms of mortal ability I can imagine some extremes to these qualities and within human means, Absolute happines is impossible but absolute denial of freedom IS possible. On the other hand, absolute happiness is impossible with no freedom.

Freedom wins out in the end, simply because you can be happy with just the realization that you are free while no matter how well you are pampered you are tyranny is incompatible with happiness.

[SiN.Daeus]

Way I see it,
Happiness is a state of mind. You could be happy simply by thinking about it.
Freedom is one of the factors that make up happiness.

I could be, as previously said, a perfectly content prisoner. Try not to think into the Absolute extremes... because those things are always rediculously pedantic.

[Itnetlolor]

I'd rather be free and choose how things go, than to live in an illusion where I believe I'm happy.

BTW, happiness doesn't come easily enough; plus, utilizing freedom to obtain happiness is a more fun approach anyway. It's odd how some of my more miserable moments allow greater yields of happiness in the long run.

Freedom it be, for freedom allows me to move around.

BTW, if happiness is a matter of security (or being secure)... Bah, I'm locked down quite well enough. Plus, if I have room to breathe and be able to dodge things and improvise on the spot, who needs to be secured? I'm secure in my insecurities, and am also rather mailable within a rigid realm. Is it me, or did I find a way to obtain both?

[Luke_Prowler]

A man chooses, a slave obeys.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

A man chooses, a slave obeys.

On the surface, the farmer tills the soils, trading the strength of his arm for a whole land of his own. But the parasites say "NO! What is yours is ours! We are the State! We are God! We demand our share!" The scientist invests the power of his mind in a single miraculous idea and naturally begins to rise above his fellows. But the parasites say "NO! Discovery must be regulated! It must be controlled and finally surrendered." An artist tries to frame his ideals in an image, to challenge his audience and make his vision immortal. But the parasites say "NO! Your art must serve the cause! Your ideals endanger the people!" Your parents sought a private life, using their great talents to provide for you. They learned to twist the lies of church and government, believing themselves masters of the system. But the parasites say "NO! The child has a duty! He'll go to war and die for the nation."

Everything Andrew Ryan says is an argument for Freedom to obtain Happiness. Had he not gone crazy paranoid, it just might have worked.

[Cthulhu]

The problem is crazy is exactly what happens when you try to implement a full-on Objectivist society.  Objectivism and Communism both have the essential failing that they ignore basic human nature.  Interestingly, it's the same aspect of human nature that messes them up: The desire to get fat off of other people's work.

His craziness certainly didn't help, turning his back on the ideals once people started taking his slices of the pie fair and square.

[Nikov]

I would rather live free and die miserable than live enslaved and die happy.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Well, finding out your underwater utopia is surrounded by a species of may-or-may-not-be-cthulhu-related sea slugs that drive people crazy and give them super powers didn't exactly help the situation. The audio logs suggest Rapture was doing just fine untill Ryan went all Stalin on the smugglers and his political opponents. Followed shortly after by mass EVE addiction.

[Belathus]

I don't know if anyone injected this quote into the discussion, yet, as I'm just joining in and haven't bothered reading all five pages, but I believe Benjamin Franklin put it best when he said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."  It saddens me to see our government repeatedly take away our freedoms for 'temporary safety', such as the DMCA, ACTA agreement, increased airport security (such as seizing and searching laptops), and the like.  Thus, I vote freedom on this issue, because without these essential freedoms, how do we know we are safe from our own government?