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Happiness! [Security]

26 (31%)

Freedom! [Liberty]

58 (69%)

Total Members Voted: 84

[Heron TSG]

Freedom. Why?

My prime example is George Orwell's 1984. For the uninformed, in 1984 there are three social levels. Proles, The Outer Party, and The Inner Party. Proles compose 85% of the population, and although they face oppresion by the Party, they are more happy and free than anyone else. The Party mostly ignores the Proles, keeping them content with cheap food, alcohol, and porn. If the Proles were to revolt agains the Party en mass they would almost certainly win, but they never will, as they are content. You might think this to be an argument for happiness, but the Proles survive off of the Party keeping them like this. And the Party won't last. The Outer Party alone shows this, with it's members being emotionaly and psycologicly grinded down their entire lives. The members of The Inner Party are no better off, being that they have real power. And in a world like 1984's, power is somthing easly lost. Thus, members of the Party are clearly losing their humanity with every passing generation, so the Party will eventualy implode. Without Big Brother to save them, what will happen to the Proles? They will die, having been conditioned to be happy under the Party.

You can be happy one day, but without the freedom to live, that day may be your last.

This is exactly what I thought of when voting for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOM!

[Armok]

This poll should actually have a third option to be more interesting and complete; Truth

Freedom, happiness, or truth.

I personally would chose to know the truth even if it imprisons and despairs me, rather than living free and happy but deluded.

[Retro]

This poll should actually have a third option to be more interesting and complete; Truth

Freedom, happiness, or truth.

I personally would chose to know the truth even if it imprisons and despairs me, rather than living free and happy but deluded.

You are failing to grasp the purpose of the thread, it seems. If you could only have one of the two options presented, which of those would you choose? Whether a third option decided by yourself is preferential is irrelevant to the discussion. If someone says "Would you rather lose both legs or one arm?" you can't say "Rather lose my ears."

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Besides, freedom entails a right to truth anyway.

[Muz]

Poorly worded poll. You might as well ask "Money or happiness". Or "Fame or happiness". Or "Family or happiness". Or even "French fries or happiness"

Happiness the goal of everything. You get money because it brings you happiness, and freedom because it brings happiness. And so on. I think a lot of people view Freedom as a moral thing. As in "Would you rather live happily under Stalin's rule or would you fight back?"

But you should sort of word the poll better, because it's biased now

[Criptfeind]

Truth is part of freedom most likely.

Most of you people are saying that you need freedom to be happy but that is not the point, obviously if you were happy than you would have what you need to be happy*.

Freedom may be a means to a end but happiness is that end.



*Not freedom, oh god no, it would be government sponsored drugs.

Freeken ninja'ed

[Diablous]

Most of you people are saying that you need freedom to be happy but that is not the point, obviously if you were happy than you would have what you need to be happy*.

Couldn't say it better myself really.

[HAMMERMILL]

Yeah, I can see knowing truth but being confined and miserable to be a bad deal.

So you get fed dog food, mineral water and ass-whupping in a 3x3 room but you know if incumbant mayor Lopez is lying about his campaign promises if you knew who the fuck mayor Lopez was in the first place. Which you could never know, because you'd have absolutely no freedom. Even if you did know that Mayor Lopez slept with like, 20 foriegn prostitiutes, it would not make you happy.

[HAMMERMILL]

Poorly worded poll. You might as well ask "Money or happiness". Or "Fame or happiness". Or "Family or happiness". Or even "French fries or happiness"

Happiness the goal of everything. You get money because it brings you happiness, and freedom because it brings happiness. And so on. I think a lot of people view Freedom as a moral thing. As in "Would you rather live happily under Stalin's rule or would you fight back?"

But you should sort of word the poll better, because it's biased now

I argue that happiness isn't the end goal, because given a choice between being a happy prisoner or a miserable free man? Why bother being alive if you have no free will?

[Armok]

I were basically translating the question to the following more meaningful choice useful to determine your deeper values;

1) eternal bliss and luxury and and general paradise, but you got no free will and never learn anything because you are never interested in anything but material pleasures. An example of this kind of condition is actually described in the Bible, as the state Adam and Eve were in before eating the apple.

2) you stay as you are now, but is put in a prison for all eternity.

3) learn lovecraftian secrets that drive you insane and put you throughout unending suffering beyond comprehension and perhaps kill you, and you also learn you never had any free will to begin with. You might also die.


I'd chose option 3, with no hesitation and no regret. Most pepale would probably chose option 1.

[Criptfeind]

Armok is better than anyone else yes he is! /sarcasm

Happy prisoner or a miserable free man?

Happy prisoner.

Free will may be a means to a end but happiness is that end.

[Retro]

I were basically translating the question to the following more meaningful choice useful to determine your deeper values;

1) eternal bliss and luxury and and general paradise, but you got no free will and never learn anything because you are never interested in anything but material pleasures. An example of this kind of condition is actually described in the Bible, as the state Adam and Eve were in before eating the apple.

2) you stay as you are now, but is put in a prison for all eternity.

3) learn lovecraftian secrets that drive you insane and put you throughout unending suffering beyond comprehension and perhaps kill you, and you also learn you never had any free will to begin with. You might also die.

I have no idea what hat you pulled the third 'translation' out of, but it still disregards the 'either A or B' choice presented to you. On top of that, your options are "happiness without freedom, average happiness without freedom, you go crazy without freedom," so forgive me if I still doubt you understand the options presented to you

[Armok]

The translation is replacing freedom with (the illusion of) free will and ramping it up to proper thoguht experiment proportions.
And option 3 assumes knowing the deepest secrets of the cosmos actually WOULD have lovecraftian effects on your psychology.

[HAMMERMILL]

IF the choice was limited to extremes. Total happiness at the expense of zero control or total freedom and absolute misery?

You can be strapped to a chair and be fed intravenously while you metabolise some drug that gives you as much pleasure as you are mortally able to recieve, yet you are strapped to a fuckin chair. While freedom and misery suggests you are alone in untamed wilderness and you sleep in mud and subside off whatever god-forsaken insect you can snatch of the face of a rock.

Intellectually, I'd be happier with situation 2 assuming my life was not in jeopardy.

OR a more moderate thinking that applies to reality, totalitarism in exchange for ensured fulfillment of your human needs, or freedom with the possibility ability and oppurtunity to persue any goal you wish?

Would you rather live in the world of Brave New World or live in a world where you create your own destiny?

Rather be an impoverished free citizen in some ghetto or a tolerated inmate in some 1st world prison?

[Criptfeind]

That is not taking it to extremes, or at lest how you say it. It is only taking the opposite of what you have decided is the correct answer to the extremes.

Edit: Say for that first one, say the same only in the wilderness you also have a brain defect that makes it so you only feel soul crushing sorrow all the time and you cant ever get used to it. That is taking it to the same extremes as you did for the chair example.