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Happiness! [Security]

26 (31%)

Freedom! [Liberty]

58 (69%)

Total Members Voted: 84

[Neonivek]

Freedom.

I can't imagine any situation where I would be happy but not free

Then it holds true that in order for you to be happy you need to be free. Thus freedom is a requirement of happyness.

Though is Happyness a requirement of freedom? That is the question.

Forces Vs. States

The thread should be Freedom (Liberty) vs Security (Safety) since that's what it usually is.

But that is... entirely different then what the person asked. Though I hardly rate either one of those above the other.

[HAMMERMILL]

I could run off and do any of those things you just mentioned, if I really wanted to. Its all within the realm of human ability. Just because I choose not to doesn't make me less free.

Lack of freedom would be say, being paralysed from the neck down, or being locked in a jail cell. In these cases you could conceivably be happy, you could just be drugged into a blissful stupor the entire time. I'd rather just be miserable yet maintain my freedom.

[Neonivek]

You can be Miserable and happy at the same time. Though I am probably going by a different definition.

The difference between feelings/emotions and states of mind.

Though Hammermill when I diagnose your answer it contains a lot of hidden meaning that I'd be a total jerk to say... I should leave. Philosophy is too much my forte

[Ephemeriis]

You're  thinking too pedantically there. In terms of freedom, I mean like the ability to choose where you live, what you want to study/work at, who you're spouse is going to be, etc. etc. Not things like 'freedom of thought' because well, nothing (that the public knows of) can monitor/control/restrict our minds...

If I can't choose where I want to live, and I'm sick of where I'm living now, how happy am I going to be?

If I can't choose what to study or where to work, and I hate my field of study or work, how happy am I going to be?

If I can't choose my spouse, and can't stand the person I'm given, how happy am I going to be?

The fact of the matter is that people have different thoughts and opinions on just about everything.  And those thoughts and opinions change from one day to the next.  Without the freedom to determine your own course in life you'll eventually wind up in a situation you don't like.  And then you won't be happy anymore.

I'll certainly agree that a large part of happiness is an acceptance of what you've got, instead of longing for something different.  And I'll agree that other people cannot force you to be unhappy.  So, to a certain degree, you can choose to be happy with whatever you're given...

But I can't stand tomatoes or rap music.  And if I was given tomatoes to eat while rap music plays in the background, and no ability to change either thing, I couldn't choose to be happy for long.

[HAMMERMILL]

I don't get terriby offended by people being jerks on the internet, I'm interested in your take on this.

I take it that so long as you are free, you can take a course of action that can lead you to happiness, or at least take comfort in the fact that you can do what you want.

Not sure freedom requires happiness. Its convicable you can unfree and happy, but I can't see how you can have no happiness so long as you are free.

[Retro]

But I can't stand tomatoes or rap music.  And if I was given tomatoes to eat while rap music plays in the background, and no ability to change either thing, I couldn't choose to be happy for long.

As I walk through the garden of the red fruit of death,
I take a look at my stomach and realize there's nothing left
Cuz I've been munching and crunching so long that
Even tomatoes look like food I'd dine on

[Sean Mirrsen]

You can be free to do anything, even if nothing you can do will make you happy. A question of ability, as well. If you're stuck on a desolate rocky island in shark-infested waters, with no food and many miles from anywhere else, you're not going to be too happy regardless of what you do.

Now, if this "freedom" package included omnipotence, well... yeah.

[HAMMERMILL]

Well, if you were on some barren rock in the ocean, you would'nt really be free because you can't do anything. You might as well be locked in a jail cell.

So freedom in this case I take as anything you can reasonably do within the limits of human capicity, not so much the freedom to move about the inside of a locked closet. Omnipotence might be out of the question, though.

[Ephemeriis]

You can be free to do anything, even if nothing you can do will make you happy. A question of ability, as well. If you're stuck on a desolate rocky island in shark-infested waters, with no food and many miles from anywhere else, you're not going to be too happy regardless of what you do.

I don't know...  No co-workers around?  No waking up at 5:00 to go in to work?  No pager?

Yeah, it'd get old eventually, but that doesn't sound too bad to me...   

[Leafsnail]

It depends, a lot.  The way I interpret the question is if you'd like to be... sort of carried through life?  Like being a prince, perhaps.  You wouldn't have much freedom to do your own thing, but you'd probably be happy.

So, theoretically, if there were people prepared to restrict my freedom and keep me happy, I'd probably answer happiness.  On the other hand, as I am now, I don't tend to take ignorance as an option... I'm not sure.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Freedom is freedom. We can probably argue for decades what is what here. On one hand, freedom is not being limited by rules. On the other, freedom is not being limited physically. If you think about it, most of the time we talk of freedom we mean it in the "unrestricted by society" sense. Not locked in a jail cell, not being hunted by police, not having to obey traffic lights... it's all there. Being free to do anything you desire to do, with nobody interfering. In this sense, you can become stranded on an island while being completely free. You could've flown your personal Learjet loaded with marijuana over the ocean and suddenly lost control. Nobody is to blame for you being stranded except yourself, so you're still free. But unable to make yourself happy any more. That's freedom without happiness.

Happiness without freedom is kinda like a prince, yes. A particularly light-headed and over-cared-for prince, but still. He's being led through his life on a leash, bound by royal blood and his parents' desires, but he's still happy, since he doesn't know freedom.

[HAMMERMILL]

Well, if having your Maslow's hierarchy of needs taken care of is your sole concern, you could just go to prison. I'm sure you can be happy in prison, you can read books, make friends, have food, shelter and everything provided for you. You just don't have your freedom.

I take freedom as being more of a physical thing, rather then a societal concept. You can smoke all the reefer and run all the red lights you want so long as you don't get caught doing it. You can't do either of those things if your legs don't work.

[Leafsnail]

The thing is, it's also quite possible to have freedom and never have the opportunity to make yourself happy...

Certainly, in the vast majority of cases you do, but I dunno how this question works.

I take freedom as being more of a physical thing, rather then a societal concept. You can smoke all the reefer and run all the red lights you want so long as you don't get caught doing it. You can't do either of those things if your legs don't work.

I wouldn't say breaking laws is a part of freedom, since laws should be in place to protect the freedom of others (under such a system, most drugs wouldn't be illegal, but that's not a debate for this thread).

[Sean Mirrsen]

Objection on the red lights thing, there exist cars for cripples. Just pointing out. And why the hell would you need legs to smoke reefer? (and what's reefer, btw?)

Just like I said, a question of ability as well. If you can't move your legs, you can't run even if you want to. But if you have angry copmobiles chasing you down Highway 666 with air support, you're only happy until you run out of either highway, gas, or luck. Society tends to limit freedom for the safety of people. Some people are unhappy with that, so for them it's important. True freedom is being physically healthy (or at least not significantly impaired) and not being artificially limited. You can still be unhappy with that setup, but that would only be your own fault.

Also, it means true freedom is impossible for everyone.
edit: ninja'd on the last sentence.

[Ephemeriis]

It depends, a lot.  The way I interpret the question is if you'd like to be... sort of carried through life?  Like being a prince, perhaps.  You wouldn't have much freedom to do your own thing, but you'd probably be happy.

So, theoretically, if there were people prepared to restrict my freedom and keep me happy, I'd probably answer happiness.  On the other hand, as I am now, I don't tend to take ignorance as an option... I'm not sure.

Except, what if you get tired of being a prince?

What if you make a lousy prince...  Don't like making laws, handing out decrees, visiting the neighboring kingdoms, meeting with ambassadors...  Just get sick of all that.  What if want to spend your days working with metal or growing plants or whatever?  And you can't, because you're too busy doing all your princely stuff?

What if the kingdom needs you to marry some specific princess for political reasons, but you feel absolutely no attraction to her.  She's stupid, and boring, and has the wrong color hair, and doesn't bathe.

You may have lots of luxuries...  But without freedom you're going to wind up in a situation you don't like sooner or later.

The thing is, it's also quite possible to have freedom and never have the opportunity to make yourself happy...

What opportunity is that?  Do you need some million-dollar house to be happy?  Do you need a fancy car to be happy?  Do you need to marry a supermodel to be happy?

Happiness is an internal mental state.  It isn't some outside force acting on you.

You can be happy slaving away in the mud all day long...  You can be miserable with billions of dollars at your disposal...

A large part of happiness is being content with what you have.

But a very important part of happiness is self-determination.  Choosing to work in the mud all day long is very different than being forced to work in the mud all day long.