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[Neonivek]

"I was suggesting is that a fey miner (instead of creating a stone trinket which is infinitely less coherent) might find a vein of sphalerite in a non-metamorphic stone layer."

Changes nothing about what I said... In fact it strengthens it (Since in your version it doesn't have to be ruby or anything particularly valuable)

To simply earn resource that you would otherwise have to trade for or even earn yourself is a weakening of the Fey mood. A artifact is unique (or at least extremely rare)... a vien of Ruby in an area where ruby cannot appear in... but appears in other locations or in the Caravan is kinda cheapening the experience.

I don't exactly have to provide a better one as it is better to not include it... However I rather like the other person's suggestion of making Miners create Mining specific artifacts (like Picks)... In fact it is a great idea.

The only other way I can think of to make your idea work is if the material found cannot be found through any other method... And/or the material found always turns into a artifact when crafted.

I need more tact... I think my words are a bit more harsh then need be

-----------------------------

Alright let me see if I can't revision my above post... I wonder which one you will like more

-----------------------------

Your idea is alright however there is no material in the game short of Adamantium that is worth having a Fey mood (I kinda don't like this term... if only because there are multiple moods and only one is Fey) over once Artifacts finally are true objects of power.

Perhaps if the Ore deposit they find is one of a kind (possibly with a randomly generated name) and/or on the same level it always gets turned into an artifact itself

Though I do also like the other person's idea that Miners will create mining based artifacts like picks

[ April 13, 2008: Message edited by: Neonivek ]

[ April 13, 2008: Message edited by: Neonivek ]

[ April 13, 2008: Message edited by: Neonivek ]

[Mikademus]

Building on my own post, above, about fey miners, I'd love to see a feyminer dig out a peaceful chapel, a possessed one dig out a daemonic summoning chamber (which perhaps would mine the way for an animal trainer to go fay and become a beast summoner/shaman sorcerer?), or go morbid and dig out and build a Gothic necropolis. The possibilities are endless with mood-stricken miners!

[Neskiairti]

hit me completely 'off the wall' while reading the 'fight' earlier.

fey moods/posession/whatever as well as something for the magic arc.

not quite as powerful, but legendary crafters/whatever might have a chance of creating something beyond the 'best' state.. and make imbued items. be a very slim chance, like one out of every 500 items atleast..

[Neonivek]

Hardly a fight... more heated then violent

[Neskiairti]

whats with all the nitpicking? note the '' around it?

oi.. how about mention something about the idea instead of picking apart my choice of words?

[Othob Rithol]

quote:Originally posted by Neonivek:
[QB]
To simply earn resource that you would otherwise have to trade for or even earn yourself is a weakening of the Fey mood. A artifact is unique (or at least extremely rare)... a vien of Ruby in an area where ruby cannot appear in... but appears in other locations or in the Caravan is kinda cheapening the experience.

I still don't understand the fixation on rubies, but I understand your objection.

quote:
I don't exactly have to provide a better one as it is better to not include it... However I rather like the other person's suggestion of making Miners create Mining specific artifacts (like Picks)... In fact it is a great idea.

The challenge was not directed at you, but the part after 'however' shows you do understand the idea of being constructive. And I too, think an artifact pick ax is a vast improvement over a stone trinket.

quote:
The only other way I can think of to make your idea work is if the material found cannot be found through any other method... And/or the material found always turns into a artifact when crafted.

Even more constructive. I agree with the first part, but not the second part. That was along the vein (sorry for the pun) that I was suggesting for farmers: this mood gives you access to something you did not have before.

quote:
I need more tact... I think my words are a bit more harsh then need be...
Alright let me see if I can't revision my above post... I wonder which one you will like more

The first one, since it had more detail. You show plenty of tact. A review of all your statements in this thread shows a level of respect to the other contributors. I was not whining in my preamble about those that disagree, but those that show disrespect.

[McDoomhammer]

Blast.  I wrote out a long reply to this, and then lost it just before posting.  I will try to sum up.

Othob, I apologise for causing offense as such was not my intention.  I withdraw the 'silly' comment, and I hope you won't think ill of me.

I must still disagree, though.  In the case of mining... well, if any skill is dwarven enough, it's mining.  But finding something that shouldn't be there just doesn't seem to be a function of skill, but of luck.  And from a game standpoint, players are going to realise, or discover, that if not for the mood, the mineral would never have been there; the legendary feat goes from sheer luck to impossible deus ex machina, and harms suspension of disbelief.  The audience should not be able to see what's going on behind the curtain.

Farming and hunting and things... apart from undwarvenliness, the game has no way that I know of to generate new plants and things on the fly, and putting one in then creating a new mood system around it seems a lot of work for something which, it could be argued, runs counter to the games theme in the first place.

I have no constructive alternatives, except to say that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  I feel for your situation, but at the same time, randomness is a strength of the system.  You could just as easily end up with a fort full of legendary weapons, masonry and leatherwork next time.  Or you could try and keep your dwarves skilled in the professions you want artifacts from and thereby influence the odds in your favour; it provides no guarantees, but it is at least logical and becomes its own kind of game challenge.

[Keldor]

Which brings us to the beginnning topic of thee thread - if a dwarf without a artifactable profession goes fey, they ALWAYS end up being a stonecrafter, woodcrafter, or bonecrafter.  NEVER anything else.  Which is rather boring, and doesn't make much sense - surely some of them dreamed of becoming great weaponcrafters or armorcrafters??

[McDoomhammer]

It's an interesting question, isn't it?  On one level, it makes perfect sense that the easier crafts would be what the cheesemaker in the street would turn to.  On another, if you told that same cheesemaker to go forge swords, they'd go off and do so without any objection or problem.

Perhaps it could be expanded to include clothesmaking/leatherwork, or at least metalcrafting.  I kind of like that artifact weapons, furniture and such are rarer- it makes them cooler, and you're most likely to get one if your fort produces a lot of that kind of thing anyway.  If anything all this is giving me a deeper appreciation for Toady's underlying genius.

[Neskiairti]

well as to the mining thing..

maybe not finding instantly, a vein of some type.. instead, he detects whats in the rock for a far distance.. like a sixth sense. He can tell what mineral is in the rock up to maybe 2-4 squares away and when it 'triggers' he goes to a specific place on the map... and gets a 'Eureka!' moment.. and a 'shaft' of identified rock shoots downwards untill it hits the Eureka material.. would have to be certain types of course.. from adamantium to as low as gold.. a large deposit of platinum,  or so forth.

this would mean of course.. if he needs to get to a certain point above it.. he digs his way to it, carving stairs up when necessary.. and maybe putting himself in harms way

[Othob Rithol]

quote:Originally posted by Keldor:
<STRONG>Which brings us to the beginnning topic of thee thread - if a dwarf without a artifactable profession goes fey, they ALWAYS end up being a stonecrafter, woodcrafter, or bonecrafter.  NEVER anything else.  Which is rather boring, and doesn't make much sense - surely some of them dreamed of becoming great weaponcrafters or armorcrafters??</STRONG>

That is one aspect I touched on a few posts back that drives me nuts. If the underlying logic is crafts that are dwarf-like are what moods are for, then mining and smithwork should far exceed woodworking in frequency.

quote:Originally posted by McDoomhammer:
<STRONG>
Farming and hunting and things... apart from undwarvenliness, the game has no way that I know of to generate new plants and things on the fly, and putting one in then creating a new mood system around it seems a lot of work for something which, it could be argued, runs counter to the games theme in the first place.
</STRONG>

As far as ease of creating the mood engine, I can only assume that it would require a minimal of work, considering how much is already coded. As for the new plants, they are actually quite easy to add into the raws. Concerning your opinion about farming being undwarvenly or counter theme, I can only point out we are talking about subterranean farming by in large, and that food production never gets the respect it deserves in any fantasy stereotypes.

quote:Originally posted by McDoomhammer:
<STRONG>I feel for your situation, but at the same time, randomness is a strength of the system.  You could just as easily end up with a fort full of legendary weapons, masonry and leatherwork next time.  Or you could try and keep your dwarves skilled in the professions you want artifacts from and thereby influence the odds in your favour; it provides no guarantees, but it is at least logical and becomes its own kind of game challenge.</STRONG>

No sympathy needed really. I've been playing this game long enough to have had dozens of 15-20 year forts. I remember one in particular where I had an entire artifact suit of plate (no shield sadly) made of various materials. I only cite my current fort because out of its 30-something moods the weakness of the existing mood system is apparent (at least to me). Said fort is a majority legendary, with just about every major job covered with at least one legendary.
What I am complaining about is not my own dumb luck this time around, but a pattern I have detected after many games.

quote:Originally posted by Neskiairti:
<STRONG>well as to the mining thing..

maybe not finding instantly, a vein of some type.. instead, he detects whats in the rock for a far distance.. like a sixth sense.
</STRONG>

I can never say, sans magic arc completion, that I would ever be for revealing parts of the map. However you do see roughly what I am talking about. I would rather have the dwarf dig to the site with in the mood, then pop the Eureka! and proceed to dig out the whole vein at legendary skill. Despite the fact that this was initially my idea (at least in this thread, no doubt somebody typed it before) I am liking the artifact pickax idea better. If we ever get mining carts or other mining tools, then those would be good as well.

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>Building on my own post, above, about fey miners, I'd love to see a feyminer dig out a peaceful chapel, a possessed one dig out a daemonic summoning chamber (which perhaps would mine the way for an animal trainer to go fay and become a beast summoner/shaman sorcerer?), or go morbid and dig out and build a Gothic necropolis. The possibilities are endless with mood-stricken miners!</STRONG>

By in large I do like this idea. This is also what I'd like to see for the engraver. Architecture has roughly the same effects and perks in the game as a trinket: increased fort value, interesting descriptions of dwarves and dwarves, and being decidely dwarvenly. To keep it beard and shoulders above normal work, a single tile (the altar, a pillar, pentagram, idol etc) could be engraved and decorated with spikes of kitten leather just like an item. Imagine a 10,000 coin  pillar.

[McDoomhammer]

I have to confess to still being a bit dubious about the farmer thing.  Having extra plant types that can only exist as the result of a mood?

I don't know.  It's not grabbing me, but others may disagree.  Perhaps it's that, while you end up with an object, it can't really be named, valued, lost or stolen in the same way as an artifact.  I realise that's just me, though- you might not see that as important.
Perhaps as time goes on farming will be changed in ways that make this fit better, or present an alternative.

I like the engraver idea.  The "miner makes a special area" idea is kind of cool, too, but it's so different from how things work now that I guess it'll just have to wait and see until the magic arc.

[zagibu]

I'm with DoomHammer here, I think moods should stick to creative skills. As I see it, moods are kind of a valve for dwarves to express their feelings and to process the things that trouble them. They enter some kind of higher state of mind (comparable with trips in real life), and become highly creative. This creative energy drives them to try new and unconventional things, which culminates in an exceptional item, that can be seen as the prototype of their creative ideas, and a legendary skill, because they developed a new approach on creating something, that also helps them with regular creation tasks of the same kind. Maybe they even get a sharper sense of some kind, like a metalcrafter, who starts to "smell" the exact temperature, at which metals melt, or a woodworker, who can "see" how the wood fibres stretch out in a certain direction...

[Mikademus]

>> McDoomhammer: "I feel for your situation, but at the same time, randomness is a strength of the system. You could just as easily end up with a fort full of legendary weapons, masonry and leatherwork next time. Or you could try and keep your dwarves skilled in the professions you want artifacts from and thereby influence the odds in your favour; it provides no guarantees, but it is at least logical and becomes its own kind of game challenge."

> Othob Rithol: "No sympathy needed really. I've been playing this game long enough to have had dozens of 15-20 year forts. I remember one in particular where I had an entire artifact suit of plate (no shield sadly) made of various materials. I only cite my current fort because out of its 30-something moods the weakness of the existing mood system is apparent (at least to me). Said fort is a majority legendary, with just about every major job covered with at least one legendary."

@McDoomhammer: It seems you're arguing from fear that the principally random nature of DF will generate more artefacts when more skills can lead to fey moods.

* First, a greater variety of fey vectors will not lead to a greater frequency of fey moods (more fey artefacts), only more diverse artefacts.

* Second, the current system is not really very balanced or entertaining, when you get a bloody bunch of fey stonecrafters, bonecarvers and woodcarvers. You can't argue that greater diversity in fay fields and outcomes will either hurt gameplay or unbalance the game.

* Third, again, the amount of artefacts should not be fixed. When you argue "don't fix what isn't broken" you're saying "I like it as it is", when the very reason you're arguing that is because other people do not enjoy the current state. Changing this hard means a lose-lose situation. You will acceept that game enjoyment and play style is individual, and role playing games elegantly exemplifies that players line up along a line when it comes to materialism (here: artefacts), the end points being the "rare until nigh on non-existant" and "exceedingly plentiful" (d20, Diablo) extremes. There is two ways of satisfying all players in these situations: (1) make different games, which is rather unlikely in this situation: or (2) a SETTING, which is what the config file is for. So yeah, we can have the cake both ways and eat it plenty.

---

>> Mikademus: "Building on my own post, above, about fey miners, I'd love to see a feyminer dig out a peaceful chapel, a possessed one dig out a daemonic summoning chamber (which perhaps would mine the way for an animal trainer to go fay and become a beast summoner/shaman sorcerer?), or go morbid and dig out and build a Gothic necropolis. The possibilities are endless with mood-stricken miners!"

> Othob Rithol: "By in large I do like this idea. This is also what I'd like to see for the engraver. Architecture has roughly the same effects and perks in the game as a trinket: increased fort value, interesting descriptions of dwarves and dwarves, and being decidely dwarvenly. To keep it beard and shoulders above normal work, a single tile (the altar, a pillar, pentagram, idol etc) could be engraved and decorated with spikes of kitten leather just like an item. Imagine a 10,000 coin pillar."

I think these kind of ideas deserves its own thread. In here, and I remember one or two other threads, we have discussed other ingresses to fey moods than just vanilla crafting and smithing, and a number of alternative fey products. There is the recent thread with artefact suggestions. And the concept of fey/possessed/morbid miners and architects producing spaces that in turn might open new avenues, bonuses or obstacles is interesting and powerful. Fey hunting/ambushing and animal training is worth exploring, perhaps brewing, plant gathering and farming, too. And the posts on special output of legendary skills should be summud up and discussed.

[ April 14, 2008: Message edited by: Mikademus ]

[Wolfius]

Dwarves auto-mining is a very, very bad idea.

Because they will mine into water and magma, cause cave-ins, create back-doors into your fort, etc.

And even if you make them smart enough to avoid warm/damp stone, they'll still drill into areas that are in the process of flooding.

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>@Wolfius: I stand by that quote. And funny enough, you failed to quote my above post where I said this "artefact" debate is mostly a terminological one. Well, if you're dead set on misunderstanding me you've told me something about yourself, and I've got more stimulating people to debate with.
</STRONG>

Sorry, I should have clarified that my intention in my last post was to point out the root the aparent missunderstanding, and I had more or less come to the conclusion that it was indeed a matter of confusion over terminology. I was also really, really tired at the time.  

Suppose that's one of the hazards of posting late at night, tho you gotta admit that proposing a new category of item while calling them by the name of an existing category was bound to create some confusion.

quote:Originally posted by McDoomhammer:
<STRONG>
Farming and hunting and things... apart from undwarvenliness, the game has no way that I know of to generate new plants and things on the fly, and putting one in then creating a new mood system around it seems a lot of work for something which, it could be argued, runs counter to the games theme in the first place.
</STRONG>

Add some spiffy crops to the raws, and give them some kind of tag that restricts their apearance to being the product of certain moods. Or have the game generate a new crop with (semi-random)bolstered stats using an existing crop as a template.

Them probably restrict it to always producing one seed.

Heck, how about one seed that produces a crop that gets slightly better with each generation, again restricted to one seed, so you only ever have one stack or the one seed. Say, +1 stack size each generation, with a nice initial bonus.

But it is kinda undwarflike, yeah.