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Author Topic: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves  (Read 3409 times)

Mikademus

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2008, 10:59:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by McDoomhammer:
<STRONG>You really do have a very big nose.</STRONG>

Lol, and you know what they say about dwarves with big noses...


 

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfius:
<STRONG>You just don't get it. ... Artifact isn't just a text badge - they're rare, valuable, sometimes powerful items whose creation is totally out of your control - emphasis on the first and last; they are outside and beyond what you can queue up for production. </STRONG>

Heh, I get where you're coming from al right. I think you're the one who don't get me, and is projecting on what I've written a lot of stuff I'm in fact not advocating. Read some more of my posts elsewhere and you'll find out that I'm actually one of those that are against micromanaging and "automated production". Artefacts should be rare, aye, but (1) there might be grades even to to grandeur; (2) with magic there will be more items that by any definition of the word could be called "artefacts"; (3) more situations, professions and skills could produce more and different artefacts; and (4) "artefact density", in lack of a better word, is an excellent candidate for a setting, since every player has a different sweet spot for game content and balance (obviously, you're not a fan of the d20 and AD&D magic item template, and that's cool, but you're absolutely not representative of all gamers, and neither are Diablo-fan dungeon crawlers); (5) and finally, if you read the forum, you'll notice that players are already setting up production-ish structures for producing the most valuable artefacts possible (a low-density output industry, for sure, but nonetheless).

Put it like this, when artificing is introduced, there is on reason for why it SHOULDN'T be baked into the current system - it would be strange and contrived to have two similar and conceptually overlapping systems.

[ April 13, 2008: Message edited by: Mikademus ]

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Mikademus

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2008, 11:03:00 am »

[double post]

[ April 13, 2008: Message edited by: Mikademus ]

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Quote from: Silverionmox
Quote from: bjlong
If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

McDoomhammer

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2008, 11:25:00 am »

Yes, they say "look at him, his nose is huge".

quote:
Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>with magic there will be more items that by any definition of the word could be called "artefacts";

</STRONG>


We don't know that.  I'm currently gravitating towards the opinion that dwarven magic should be restricted to artifacts, with perhaps some interesting alchemy.  And as for 'representation', it's not like this game is programmed democratically.  Plus even if you accept the premise that D&D is the preferred mode of fantasy gaming, that doesn't mean DF should be like D&D.  That's what D&D is for.

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Mikademus

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2008, 11:58:00 am »

Actually, I'm not very fond of the AD&D/d20 magic system... As for democracy. I am a programmer myself and I always have the final word on what I put in my stuff. Then again, the only thing we have to go on here on the forum is the discussions, and in them, there is a consensus, or at least at strong current. That does not mean that's what will necessarily end up in the code, but again, if we can't talk about that we know not of, then there wouldn't be much discussion about anything at all (or rather, the discussion would be very, very boring). Hmm, what is the name of this sub-forum, again? "Suggestions" or something?
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Quote from: bjlong
If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

Derakon

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2008, 01:11:00 pm »

On a related note, in my opinion anything that has a skill related should have an associated quality level, or if it can't, then that skill should not be eligible for moods.

I just got a legendary tanner. This is probably the most useless legendary skill possible, since you rarely need to tan hides and there's no quality level on tanning. Slightly less-useless is brewing, since you need to do that more often, but it's still pretty useless. In my opinion, if you're legendary in a skill, you should have something tangible to show for it aside from just "I can make things really fast".

For mining, you get more ore/stone.
For engraving, crafts, forging, etc. you get higher-quality goods.
For growing/plant gathering, you get a better return on your seeds/plants.
And so on.

Some skills that currently have no associated quality levels (but still generate products, so no cheesemaking, etc. or military skills):
* Animal training
* Tanning
* Butchery
* Wood burning/Furnace operating/Potash making/Lye making
* Milling
* Brewing
* Plant Processing

All of these make for pretty useless legendary dwarves, and at least some of them can be made legendary through moods. Some of them at least could have associated quality levels, and they should - tanning should work like weaving does, and you could have varying levels of brew quality. The others, in my opinion, should not be eligible for mood-based boosting; some other skill should be picked to raise to legendary instead.

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Wolfius

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2008, 01:13:00 pm »

Oh, I know players can and do weight things to try and get specific artifacts, but it's still mostly luck(a dwarf may never go fey, or not produce the specific item you want, or make it out of low quality material, etc), and for the most part, a given dwarf can only ever make the one artifact.

Whereas what you propose would allow total control; you wouldn't know when your designer artifacts would come out, but you can control what you get.


Now, I'm not against magic items, or objects of power, or whatever. I'm just saying that artifacts as they currently are stand apart and above mainly because of how they come about, and because of that should retain their position of dramatically superior quality. I don't have a problem with 'lesser artifacts', so long as they are indeed markedly lesser.

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Align

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2008, 01:25:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Derakon:
<STRONG>Slightly less-useless is brewing, since you need to do that more often, but it's still pretty useless.</STRONG>
I seem to recall reading somewhere that drinks have a hidden quality modifier, so a legendary brewer would give rise to more "had a truly decadent drink" thoughts.
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McDoomhammer

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2008, 02:08:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Derakon:
<STRONG>
Some skills that currently have no associated quality levels (but still generate products, so no cheesemaking, etc. or military skills):
* Animal training
* Tanning
* Butchery
* Wood burning/Furnace operating/Potash making/Lye making
* Milling
* Brewing
* Plant Processing

All of these make for pretty useless legendary dwarves, and at least some of them can be made legendary through moods. Some of them at least could have associated quality levels, and they should - tanning should work like weaving does, and you could have varying levels of brew quality. The others, in my opinion, should not be eligible for mood-based boosting; some other skill should be picked to raise to legendary instead.</STRONG>



Not a bad idea in principle, but in practice I fear it would imbalance the game.  multiplying the amount of stuff you get or the value of already valuable things, that sort of stuff.  I dunno.

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Mikademus

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2008, 02:58:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfius:
<STRONG>Oh, I know players can and do weight things to try and get specific artifacts, but it's still mostly luck(a dwarf may never go fey, or not produce the specific item you want, or make it out of low quality material, etc), and for the most part, a given dwarf can only ever make the one artifact.

Whereas what you propose would allow total control; you wouldn't know when your designer artifacts would come out, but you can control what you get.


Now, I'm not against magic items, or objects of power, or whatever. I'm just saying that artifacts as they currently are stand apart and above mainly because of how they come about, and because of that should retain their position of dramatically superior quality. I don't have a problem with 'lesser artifacts', so long as they are indeed markedly lesser.</STRONG>


I assume this was directed at me? I have no idea whatsoever how on earth you're able to construe my posts as promoting "total control" over "artefact production".

For your benefit, a summary of my position: Dwarves go fey whenever. They make artefacts. Legendary dwarves may make legendary stuff. Fay moods has a chance of resulting in spectacular items. All dwarf specialities can birth fey moods.

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If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

Wolfius

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2008, 04:54:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>

I assume this was directed at me? I have no idea whatsoever how on earth you're able to construe my posts as promoting "total control" over "artefact production".
</STRONG>



quote:
Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>
...I think rather a legendary skill level should bring special boni: legendary crafting (or smithing etc) intermittently creates artefacts...
</STRONG>
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Neonivek

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2008, 05:11:00 pm »

Artifacts are kinda the Brain child of a dwarf the Opex of their achievement so much so that a Dwarf who goes into a Mood will never go into it once again as they have fulfilled their meaning in life.

I don't think a Dwarf should be able to make one outside of moods... it kinda ruins the mystique... It turns the "Opex" into "Well if you actually spent some time maybe you would make some more".

As for Non-artifact moods: I don't think that Miners should be able to go into moods and find veins no matter how rare it is... since it is kinda like "Ohh you found a ton of Ruby? Alright Ill put it next to all this Adamantium I got normally yet didn't require moods to obtain". Unless the material could not be obtained any other way I have to disagree with mining moods replacing Artifact moods for miners. Making it Adamantium also in a way takes away from the whole adamantium finding aspect of the game as well.

Mostly I feel that the Moods should keep up their effect over the game in that they give you unreplicatable objects of power (Though not powerful now).

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Mikademus

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2008, 05:55:00 pm »

@Wolfius: I stand by that quote. And funny enough, you failed to quote my above post where I said this "artefact" debate is mostly a terminological one. Well, if you're dead set on misunderstanding me you've told me something about yourself, and I've got more stimulating people to debate with.

quote:
Originally posted by Neonivek:
<STRONG>As for Non-artifact moods: I don't think that Miners should be able to go into moods and find veins no matter how rare it is... since it is kinda like "Ohh you found a ton of Ruby? Alright Ill put it next to all this Adamantium I got normally yet didn't require moods to obtain". Unless the material could not be obtained any other way I have to disagree with mining moods replacing Artifact moods for miners. Making it Adamantium also in a way takes away from the whole adamantium finding aspect of the game as well.</STRONG>

A miner "discovering" a boatload of diamonds wouidl be a fugly fake fey mood, aye. However, a miner going into a fey moiod and carving out a huge, wonderful domed chapel making all dwarfs happy (happier?), making a Mining Pick of Dowsing or one of Turn Ore Into Ingots, or something would be right on.

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Quote from: Silverionmox
Quote from: bjlong
If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

Neonivek

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2008, 06:27:00 pm »

"carving out a huge, wonderful domed chapel"

Automatic mining? Dangerous stuff there man.

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Keldor

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2008, 06:40:00 pm »

Drinks should definitly have quality levels, and perhaps even the year they were brewed.  "Ahh, nothing beats a 1058 Urist brothers dwarven wine, except perhaps for the 1062 Melbilerzhaart strawberry wine."  Looks like you would also have to include the creator's name in the description.  Also, just imagine those elves trying to persuade you to pay 6x extra for their 267 prickleberry wine! "Bah! That elf water be older than I am!"

All this also applies to cheeses.

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Othob Rithol

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Re: Strange moods should not result in so many craftsdwarves
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2008, 06:50:00 pm »

First of all just let me say that the hostility of these forums continues to escalate, which I find sad. Whereas I might be sarcastic on occasion, I am fully aware that we are all just spectators here, making suggestions. To dismiss another fan's ideas as silly, to argue about how to spell artifact/artefact or to point out that a tower cap has spawn (rather than a seed, despite the fact that that seed is the item category it would belong to) is bickering about minutiae rather than actually hammering out an idea.

Everything I have posted thus far has been strictly a work in progress, and if you find weakness in these ideas, please feel free to improve upon them. To do otherwise defeats the goal of the OP.

So back on topic:

I never suggested a fey miner should find a pile of rubies nor did I suggest the miner finding a vein of adamantium. To clarify: What I was suggesting is that a fey miner (instead of creating a stone trinket which is infinitely less coherent) might find a vein of sphalerite  in a non-metamorphic stone layer. This would possibly provide a resource (and a very dwarvenly one) that was lacking from the site. If you dislike the specifics, provide a better one.

By the same token, an fey engraver should make a legendary engraving, rather than a mug.

A fey ambusher running off-screen and returning with a megabeast skin was not my  suggestion, but rather a derivation of my suggestion by Wolfius. In the spirit of working together, I adopted the concept in later posts as an expedient. I would much rather actually have the ranger fight the beast, and possibly die. You must admit, that a dwarf hunter making a cloak out of named beast it killed is no more whimsical than a miner chipping out a crown with his pick ax.

A farmer gaining access to an unknown plant is not merely a matter of luck. I would so love to grow an avocado in my yard, but the climate here is wrong for it. However, given enough time, I could probably breed a strain that would (albeit probably not a healthy, tasteful fruit). By the same token merely having access to a tower cap SPAWN (happy?) does not guarantee that one can cultivate it. To go the way of Mendel, would it not be an aspect of skill to produce a strain of quarry bush that grows in winter, or a wild strawberry adapted to subterranean cultivation?  Again, if you can improve the idea, do so.

I do agree that in the common culture, dwarves are a race of craftwork. I would not like to see that diluted to such an extent that they lose that identity. However, this can be alleviated, and room made for these suggestions, by simply weighting the frequency. Crafts dwarves are known for (mining, stonework, smithing) could just be more frequent, with the support skills (farming, fishing, weaving) being likewise less frequent.

It makes no sense to me what-so-ever that in my fort I have perhaps 10 legendary woodcrafters, almost as many bonecrafters, and several legendary tanners. In the same fort ONE of my smiths has gone fey ( out of 8 ) and that it is dubbed silly that I might suggest that one of my farmers, my hunter, my wood cutter, or perhaps even my <gasp> architect might go fey and craft an artifact suitable to their profession.

This is most clearly evidenced by looking at child prodigies (children going fey). In the current fort I have had three: All woodcrafters.

Does suggesting this needs revision so seriously undermine the game concept? Perhaps you have better suggestions?

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