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[Wolfius]

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>
...intermittently creates artefacts...</STRONG>

No. Just... no.

That would massively devalue artifacts.

[McDoomhammer]

Agreed, and no to the rest, too, from me.  The benefit of being a legendary ambusher is and should remain that you're really really really good at, y'know, ambushing.  Strange moods should be about making things and making things only.  These are dwarves- dwarves make amazing shiny things.  It's what they do.  Being inspied to 'gain weird archery skills' is completely incongruous, it turns them from a race with wonderous crafting abilities to a race of insanely able savants-for-no-reason.  Mystic tattoos can be left to the player's imagination.

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by Wolfius:
<STRONG>

No. Just... no.

That would massively devalue artifacts.</STRONG>

Not necessarily. Atm artefacts are just curious things with bizarre descriptions and sometimes high retail price. I'd prefer a legendary artificer that creates lesser-valued magical tolls and weapons. I think you're a bit too myopic in how you perceive "artefacts", if dwarven magic is implemented in the way currently favoured by the forum dwellers then more or less deliberate artificing will be part of the game (what is a magic object if not an artefact?). It is really rather a question more nuanced artefacts. Just because there will be more of them does not mean that you will be flooded by immensly powerful ones.

[Othob Rithol]

I have to agree that creating an artifacts outside of a mood strikes me as odd. We already have a sub-artifact (the master work item) that has a sizable bonus above the next tier (exceptional).

Where I was going with my statements about ambushers et al is that currently we do get spammed with bone carvers and stonecrafters like the OP said. Finding some tangible way of making other skills go legendary that has the same power/effect of the current craft moods just seems like it should be there.

Even some of the current mood make little sense. My miner goes moody, makes a stone crafting item, and is now legendary? How about instead, he digs a tunnel 10-20 tiles in a random direction (even cutting through an engraved wall) and finds an ore vein not normally found in that rock type?

I thought the mythic plump helmet suggestion was a move in the right direction. But I'd rather see the farmer discovering a NEW plant type. Do the veterans here remember how happy you were to find quarry bushes in your cave? Imagine, if you will, a set of rare plants (that you cannot start with) that the farmer/herbalist could discover. The existing plant mod (here) could provide many inspirations for this.
Plants that could replace wood, flux, potash, pearlash, sand, etc might be viable finds (balance needed). Urist Hoemaster has discovered a Tower-Cap seed!

The suggestion of a legendary ambusher mood has sparked a bit of debate. I agree that the tangible benefit of a legendary ambusher is that you have a dwarf ninja. But in keeping with the item creation theme, the dwarf could, for instance vanish, return later, and proceed to head to/convert a leather workers shop and make a (insert semi or megabeast name here) cloak, boots, quiver, etc.
Such an item will likely have no more benefit than an artifact scepter.

Replacing some mood items with a large quantity of a normal consumable resource (I mentioned 25 plump helmets) would just be a conceptual placeholder.

So in conclusion, my model suggests:
1)Any skill can be boosted to legendary by a mood
2)All moods generate an item of some type
3)The primary benefit of a mood is the skill, not the item

[McDoomhammer]

quote: 1)Any skill can be boosted to legendary by a mood
2)All moods generate an item of some type
3)The primary benefit of a mood is the skill, not the item

In order:  
1) Disagree.  Once again- Dwarves are renowned crafters, not ninjas, farmers or idiot savants.  The set-up is the way it is for a reason.  It would ruin the dwarfy flavour to modify it so drastically.  Dwarves can attain renown in any field the usual way, but moods are there to make them special.

2) Agree in principle for the aforementioned reason, disagree with your specifics.  It's already possible for a ranger to get a mood and make a megabeast-skin item.  But creating something from hydra leather you didn't previously have, or discovering ore where it shouldn't be, or stumbling across a heretofore undiscovered plant, are just silly.  The latter is a matter of pure luck and nothing to do with skill; the former completely impossible no matter how good you are; and the middle one both.  (Oh, and tower-caps are giant mushrooms, they don't have seeds).

3) Disagree.  At the risk of sounding like a stuck cliche... dwarves are all about the shiny artifacts.  Fame is just a nice side benefit.

All that said, you are right about masterwork items.  

Mikademus:

quote: Not necessarily. Atm artefacts are just curious things with bizarre descriptions and sometimes high retail price. I'd prefer a legendary artificer that creates lesser-valued magical tolls and weapons. I think you're a bit too myopic in how you perceive "artefacts", if dwarven magic is implemented in the way currently favoured by the forum dwellers then more or less deliberate artificing will be part of the game (what is a magic object if not an artefact?). It is really rather a question more nuanced artefacts. Just because there will be more of them does not mean that you will be flooded by immensly powerful ones.

You're not making a lot of sense.  I don't see how the possible future magical properties of artifacts (and it is artifacts, an artEfact is a statistical anomaly) has anything to do with them being created at will, it just sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.  I think the current system, being wreathed in magic and mystery, suits the addition of magic as is just fine, and intentionally so.  "changing it won't necessarily blow up in our faces" is hardly a good argument for; you will have to explain better to us myopia-sufferers what these nuances are and what difference that makes.  

And it's not just direct in-game value that would be lost- as it is, artifacts are cool, because they're rare and random.  It's exciting to see what your dorfs produce, and I bet there's no-one here who doesn't read the artifact description as soon as each one is finished, to be either excited or disappointed at the result.  A genuine emotional investment in the game, however small.  Do you understand how rare and important that is?  Take a fort with five or ten legendary workers, each knocking out an artifact every season... even every year... and they'd go from being something the player genuinely cares about to, well, spam.  That would be nothing short of criminal.

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by Othob Rithol:
<STRONG>I have to agree that creating an artifacts outside of a mood strikes me as odd. We already have a sub-artifact (the master work item) that has a sizable bonus above the next tier (exceptional).
...
The suggestion of a legendary ambusher mood has sparked a bit of debate. I agree that the tangible benefit of a legendary ambusher is that you have a dwarf ninja. But in keeping with the item creation theme, the dwarf could, for instance vanish, return later, and proceed to head to/convert a leather workers shop and make a (insert semi or megabeast name here) cloak, boots, quiver, etc.
Such an item will likely have no more benefit than an artifact scepter.
...
So in conclusion, my model suggests:
1)Any skill can be boosted to legendary by a mood
2)All moods generate an item of some type
3)The primary benefit of a mood is the skill, not the item</STRONG>

Agree fully, that is a good layout. It fits and goes well with the current game model, it extends the game play logically without revolutionising it, it appreciates the skills, and brings a diversity to the game.

About legendaries producing masterful items, sure, let's call them "masterworks" rather than artefacts (which however is an artificial distinction). When and if artificing magic is incorporated, then this will shift anyway. Anyway, this is a mere terminological issue, and a relatively minor one, not a fundamental gameplay deficiency.

McDoomhammer: "it is artifacts, an artEfact is a statistical anomaly)". Artifact is missing in my English (or "British-English", as the former colonists misnomerically calls it) Firefox dictionary, which is why it is consistently spelled as "artefact" in my posts. Also:

quote:American Heritage Dictionary
<STRONG>American Heritage Dictionary
ar·ti·fact also ar·te·fact (är'tə-fākt')  Pronunciation Key
n.  

  1. An object produced or shaped by human craft, especially a tool, weapon, or ornament of archaeological or historical interest.
  2. Something viewed as a product of human conception or agency rather than an inherent element: "The very act of looking at a naked model was an artifact of male supremacy" (Philip Weiss).
  3. A structure or feature not normally present but visible as a result of an external agent or action, such as one seen in a microscopic specimen after fixation, or in an image produced by radiology or electrocardiography.
  4. An inaccurate observation, effect, or result, especially one resulting from the technology used in scientific investigation or from experimental error: The apparent pattern in the data was an artifact of the collection method.

[Latin arte, ablative of ars, art; see art1 + factum, something made (from neuter past participle of facere, to make; see dhē- in Indo-European roots).] </STRONG>

Boy, don't you feel like a sorry Messerschmidt now, NcDoomhammer.  :p

[McDoomhammer]

More of a Spitfire.  I'm English myself, and can't account for my own preference for the American-favoured form.

Anyway, back to the actual discussion:

quote: It fits and goes well with the current game model, it extends the game play logically without revolutionising it, it appreciates the skills, and brings a diversity to the game.

As I have previously argued, quite the contrarary.  The game is stunningly diverse already- the skills are already there, after all.  Trying to extend the 'mood' effects into skills unrelated to crafting radically alters the feel of the dwarves, and makes the skills unnecessarily uniform in a way that's not logical at all.

quote: About legendaries producing masterful items, sure, let's call them "masterworks" rather than artefacts (which however is an artificial distinction). When and if artificing magic is incorporated, then this will shift anyway. Anyway, this is a mere terminological issue, and a relatively minor one, not a fundamental gameplay deficiency.

Now you're really making no sense.  The distinction is not artificial at all, Masterwork items and legendary artifacts are completely different things.  Masterfully-crafted items are just the highest quality of mundane item; they're not named, they're not the products of moods, they function just like any other item for purposes of use, decoration and trading.   They're significantly better and more expensive even than the next step down the quality heirarchy, I think they have the creator's name quoted in their view description, and you do get a single small announcement when one is created.  You don't have to be legendary to create them, but it helps and legendary craftsdwarves will make them very frequently.
In other words, they are already there, filling the role you suggest for artifacts, without ruining artifacts.

I still have no idea what you're trying to say about magic, things shifting, or "gameplay deficiencies".

[Wolfius]

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>

Not necessarily. Atm artefacts are just curious things with bizarre descriptions and sometimes high retail price. I'd prefer a legendary artificer that creates lesser-valued magical tolls and weapons. I think you're a bit too myopic in how you perceive "artefacts", if dwarven magic is implemented in the way currently favoured by the forum dwellers then more or less deliberate artificing will be part of the game (what is a magic object if not an artefact?). It is really rather a question more nuanced artefacts. Just because there will be more of them does not mean that you will be flooded by immensly powerful ones.</STRONG>

What makes artifacts special is not their use or value, but the uncontrolled randomness of their creation.

If you farm up ten legendary masons and have them turn out rock tables and chairs until you eventually have enough artifact versions to outfit your entire dining room? That utterly devalues them - they just become the new masterwork.

Want an artifact table? All you can do is train some immigrants up so their highest skill is masonry, hope one of them goes mood, and that they happen to create an artifact table - it's luck, chance, fortune. You are not responsible for their creation, and you will rarely have more than a handful.

It makes that rare, useful artifact very special, and memorable. Getting an artifact table can actually be exciting; a centerpiece around which to build your legendary dining room, or other structure.

[Mikademus]

^ Atm, you're basically getting excited about an item having the text badge "artefact". I'm looking forward to an artefact being an item of power and magic. One currently favoured (speculative) flavour of dwarven magic is artificing, and that will have the consequence of many such. Then the current artefacts will probably simply be such of higher value or power. That is as it should be, imo.

McDoomhammer, "artefact" comes from the latin "arte" (which in turn comes from "ars", that is, "craft", "making"), thus "artIfact" would seem to be a later derivative spelling, perhaps from pronunciation drift, of the original (of course speaking about "correct spelling" in earlier English is somewhat silly, language standardisation is a late thing).

[McDoomhammer]

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>^ Atm, you're basically getting excited about an item having the text badge "artefact". I'm looking forward to an artefact being an item of power and magic. One currently favoured (speculative) flavour of dwarven magic is artificing, and that will have the consequence of many such. Then the current artefacts will probably simply be such of higher value or power. That is as it should be, imo.</STRONG>

Putting aside the vaguely condescending comments about getting excited, yes, I agree... I'm looking forward to practical magic properties too, and while I don't know what's planned, I think that the mood-artifact system as it now stands will continue to work well with magic effects simply plugged into it.

I just don't see the need to make any legendary dwarf churn out artifacts 'periodically', or for strange moods to result in legendary hunters and farmers and cheesemakers.

[Proteus]

Milker has claimed a farmrs workshop

...want purring maggots

Milker has created an Artifact:
The white taste
This is a masterfully milked bottle of dwarven milk. It menaces with masterfully craftd spikes of dwarven butter

[Mikademus]

No condescension intended, and blessed be the cheese makers (and all makers of dairy products in general). I would enjoy a richer use of the existing skills, and I also agree that dwarves are a materialistically hoarding and creative race. Thus, it would be natural and enjoyable that a fey hunter makes a Cape of Camouflage, Boots of the Deer, or similar and takes down mammoths, that a a fey animal trainer makes a Leach of Subjugated Bondage and rears spectacularly ferocious war hounds, and that legendary weaponsmiths creates mighty weapons, and every now and rare then, one of spectacular notability. Etc.

[McDoomhammer]

Hmm.  That might actually work, at least for some of the professions.  Still not a huge amount you can do with cheese.  And it shouldn't do too much to erode the enjoyable randomness of artifacts.  Regardless, it's all quite a long way off at the moment.

You really do have a very big nose.

[Wolfius]

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>^ Atm, you're basically getting excited about an item having the text badge "artefact". I'm looking forward to an artefact being an item of power and magic. One currently favoured (speculative) flavour of dwarven magic is artificing, and that will have the consequence of many such. Then the current artefacts will probably simply be such of higher value or power. That is as it should be, imo.
</STRONG>

You just don't get it.

Artifact isn't just a text badge - they're rare, valuable, sometimes powerful items whose creation is totally out of your control - emphasis on the first and last; they are outside and beyond what you can queue up for production. If you can periodicaly turn out artifacts - say maybe train up and set a dozen legendary masons on table/chair repeat build until you can build an artifact-only dining room, or likewise with smiths to put 50 dwarven troopers in artifact kit - they're no longer exotic wonders, but simply high-grade production goods.

Frankly, I don't care about magic, but if artificing is introduced, there's no reason it should be rolled into, or displace, the current artifact system.

[Mephansteras]

On the subject of Artifacts giving legendary status to skills other then creation ones, I'd like to point out that they already do that. I've had quite a few dwarves take over a mason's shop to come out as legendary MINERS, not masons. So I see no reason why a dwarf couldn't get a legendary skill out of something else.

And I agree with the OP about it being nice if strange moods did more then just give you craftsdwarves. Even if it was a simple as your fisherdwarf going in, demanding shells, and coming out a legendary fisher. It's no different from the mason's shop giving you a miner, and it at least means you don't end up with quite so many bone carvers or whatever.