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Author Topic: These are the many profitable industries with no copyright protection  (Read 10761 times)

Phmcw

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Blacken I do not advocate piracy. I despite copyright as they are enforced now.
I don't ask for the work of other, I want to have full power over the programs I own. And yes it's to work with it.
In case you didn't noticed, linux is not exactly gamer friendly.
I won't even respond to your stupid comment about work and gpl.
On RMS it's blatantly false. Stop spreading lie: he worked, hard and is knew for his programming skills.

I understand your point tough.
Bu you are misunderstanding me. I know that developing software cost money, and that the work for free software is not something that appears by the magic of the Internet. But there is other way to get money then the stupid and amoral ways used now.
On the morality of the subject, I'll point you toward RMS explanation. His biography is a good point to start.

Ps:  You're being stupid now. RMS is the pillars of the GNU project and the gpl. Saying he has done nothing is just dumb.

Edit Gpl is there to protect the user right against copyright, yes it's pretty much a fight fire with fire solution. Thought actually it also enforce the right of the autor to get credit for it's work.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 11:22:36 am by Phmcw »
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Mfbrew

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Blacken, you could have saved yourself some time and summed up your whole angry post there by saying "you and I have very different preferences and needs with the software we use."

As far as what everyone else is saying about gnu/copyleft relying on copyright:

It's interesting if you think about it.  It's like the liberal crime squad (love that game) using guns to further an agenda that includes gun control.  It really comes down to the morality of whether or not it's ok to fight fire with fire, but that really IS outside the topic of this thread.
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Blacken

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I don't ask for the work of other, I want to have full power over the programs I own. And yes it's to work with it.
I'm actually quite willing to see reverse engineering and the like excised from most EULAs; if you want to hack around in software you bought, by all means. But that's not what the anti-copyright nards want: they want to be able to just give shit they didn't make away. That's the problem.

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In case you didn't noticed, linux is not exactly gamer friendly.
As I've actually worked on such...no, no it is not.

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I won't even respond to your stupid comment about work and gpl.
On RMS it's blatantly false. Stop spreading lie: he worked, hard and is knew for his programming skills.
He has bounced between Harvard, MIT, and his own Free Software Foundation for his entire adult life. It's not at all a lie to say that he's never had a real job. (I've met RMS. He's a useless, horribly sexist dipshit.)

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Bu you are misunderstanding me. I know that developing software cost money, and that the work for free software is not something that appears by the magic of the Internet. But there is other way to get money then the stupid and amoral ways used now.
Yeah. Ones that don't fucking work for consumer software. There are no monetized GPL games out there, you do know that? Nice try though. I know you thought real hard.

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On the morality of the subject, I'll point you toward RMS explanation. His biography is a good point to start.
I've read every essay RMS has ever published. They're all the fucking same, and they're all fundamentally disrespectful of creators' rights.

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Ps:  You're being stupid now. RMS is the pillars of the GNU project and the gpl. Saying he has done nothing is just dumb.
What company has he ever worked for? Where has he ever been put in the position of actually making a living off his intellectual property, instead of off of speakers' fees? He has no ground to be bitching about this stuff, because he's never been in the other guy's shoes.

I've been on both sides. Copyright still works just fine.

You clearly don't understand me or PeterB, and it shows in your responses.
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Sir Pseudonymous

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When it comes down to it, pirates either don't have the money to spend on media in the first place (like, say, people in third world countries and poor college students), they couldn't spend money on it if they wanted to because it's not available (like, say, people in third world countries, or, in the case of particularly old/obscure media, anyone), or they already spent their media budget on what they saw as the best value and are just pirating the shit from the bottom of the barrel/obscure shit they just happen to come across (the largest category).
Then fucking do without. It's not a hard concept. If you can't pay for it, don't take it. Piracy fundamentally disrespects the rights of the creator that we have established as a society. You bitch about your rights, which is funny because you're busily pissing on theirs.

Hypocrites.
Said nothing about rights there, that was in reference to attempts to circumvent first-sale, see below. Also see "they take nothing" and "are the fucking ones who give the most in the first fucking place".

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So trying to paint them as freeloaders is slanderous and intellectually dishonest: they take nothing from the industry, and in most cases give more to it than non-pirates, who generally don't consume nearly as much media.
Prove it. No, seriously: prove it. Prove that pirated media is a net benefit for the industry. (Hint: you won't find it from a reliable and credible source.)

It's entirely anecdotal, but the overwhelming majority of pirates I know (college students, not having money? really? that's not it at all, they want to spend it on beer instead) don't buy games at all except where they have to, i.e. consoles. Looks like more lockdown really is the answer! Awesome!
Let's see... every fucking study done on the matter shows that the people who spend the most on media and the ones who pirate media are the same fucking people, with a handful of outliers on either side.

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Now, used games do hurt the industry, in that they're essentially full price, but nothing goes back to the devs/publishers. They're also legally protected, and the recent efforts to fuck up used game sales are fucking disgusting. "Fuck your rights, I want free money! >:O "
Resale is 100% a consumer right, and I agree utterly that trying to stop game resale is a serious problem. But it does not excuse piracy.
Read for comprehension there. "Used sales" are what actually hurts the industry, whereas piracy has a negligible or mildly positive impact on it. Trying to fuck with used sales, however, is a disgusting fucking trampling on people's rights.
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I'm all for eating the heart of your enemies to gain their courage though.

Phmcw

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There is more in software than just games you know?   :o
Everything you say is about gaming industry. I speak as a student in physics. I don't care about STALKER CRISIS or whatever.
I care however about unreliable hack used to make proprietary software work with free software, I care about data corruption when you try to write on a NTFS partition, I care about text editors non being able to change file format properly.
I care about having to use windows to make fucking proprietary software work, while preferring linux distro in every other aspect; I care about no one being able to figure out what the hell is happening in software not disclosing their source code.
I care about having to use two different software for the same task, because of compatibility issues, instead of fixing the issues.
I don't care about shiny nerd toys.

Reverse engineering is fucking time consuming and unreliable. Have you ever used wine?
Quote from: Blacken
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On the morality of the subject, I'll point you toward RMS explanation. His biography is a good point to start.
I've read every essay RMS has ever published. They're all the fucking same, and they're all fundamentally disrespectful of creators' rights.

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Ps:  You're being stupid now. RMS is the pillars of the GNU project and the gpl. Saying he has done nothing is just dumb.
What company has he ever worked for? Where has he ever been put in the position of actually making a living off his intellectual property, instead of off of speakers' fees? He has no ground to be bitching about this stuff, because he's never been in the other guy's shoes.
[/quote]

You understand that he is against the concept of intellectual property, right?
Then the fact that he is only living from his speaker's fee is a point in his favor.
He've worked for fucking Harvard. It's worth every company's job of the world.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 12:39:11 pm by Phmcw »
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Deathworks

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Hi!

I think this discussion is getting a bit confused as we actually have three completely different concepts that are placed against each other with borderlines sometimes ignored:

While everyone probably has no problem identifying commercial software like Photoshop as a distinct faction, I think there is confusion between piracy and open source. Open source is not identical to piracy and for all I know, as I have pointed out before, open source is the one faction that is actually damaged the most by piracy.

For instance, I am relatively sure, that while Blacken doubts the viability of good open source software, he is not opposed to people publishing their own work under open source should they choose to do so.

So, how about reviewing the positions about these three points rather than putting two unrelated issues (open source and piracy) together into a single big pot and being surprised at what a horrible mess we get?

And please, do try to keep the language somewhat in bounds. I don't want to see this discussion locked just because of unfortunate choices of words - it is far too interesting and important for such a sorry fate.

Deathworks
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Phmcw

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Deathwork, the debate right now is whether non free (as in freedom) and open source licensing should be enforced at all.
I don't support piracy, nor do I support the means used to deter it.
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DrPizza

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Blacken I do not advocate piracy. I despite copyright as they are enforced now.
I don't ask for the work of other, I want to have full power over the programs I own. And yes it's to work with it.
In case you didn't noticed, linux is not exactly gamer friendly.
I won't even respond to your stupid comment about work and gpl.
On RMS it's blatantly false. Stop spreading lie: he worked, hard and is knew for his programming skills.
No, he's known for being an ideologue with a poor sense of personal hygiene. I doubt you'll find much of his initial contributions to gcc these days, and emacs is not anything to be proud of.

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I understand your point tough.
Bu you are misunderstanding me. I know that developing software cost money, and that the work for free software is not something that appears by the magic of the Internet. But there is other way to get money then the stupid and amoral ways used now.
Stupid and amoral ways like, uh, charging for replication? What's stupid and amoral about that, exactly? It seems to me to be an extremely good way of distributing the development costs across the entire userbase.

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On the morality of the subject, I'll point you toward RMS explanation. His biography is a good point to start.
No, it isn't. I've read it. It isn't a good point to start, at all. RMS's "explanation" is that he wanted to give a copy of a program to someone else. That's it. That's not a moral case in favour of copyleft.
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Deathworks

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Hi!

Phmcw: I wasn't sure whether everyone agreed on this one and it seemed that people misunderstood each other on that in some parts of the posts. Let's see how the others feel.

And I think, basically the two of us agree on the position of not supporting piracy or DRM and copyright protection - although the faces of the people who bought Leisure Suit Larry legally on their Amiga and were rewarded with getting a virus installed were probably an interesting sight :) :) :) :).

Deathworks
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Phmcw

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No, he's known for being an ideologue with a poor sense of personal hygiene. I doubt you'll find much of his initial contributions to gcc these days, and emacs is not anything to be proud of.

He is old now and contributing full time on the political aspect of the FSF. I cannot judge of his work on programming these las years, but I doubt that you've taken any time to gather information on his work so I'll leave it at that. The comment on hygiene is still stupid and offensive.

His past work is praised by basically everyone, so is emacs.


Stupid and amoral ways like, uh, charging for replication? What's stupid and amoral about that, exactly? It seems to me to be an extremely good way of distributing the development costs across the entire userbase.

No, it isn't. I've read it. It isn't a good point to start, at all. RMS's "explanation" is that he wanted to give a copy of a program to someone else. That's it. That's not a moral case in favour of copyleft.


Ok, right.  ::)
RMS's  wanted to give a copy of a program to someone else that's why we are backing free software.
Not the fact that proprietary os are black boxes, not the invasion of privacy, the ever growing restriction on the user's right, the license imbroglio, the books and song deleted on the user's computer because the sore that sold them closed.
Nor it is because enforcing anti piracy laws means controlling all information transiting in the Internet.

Of course, the reek of Richard Stallman kept you off his website, and you don't know anything about copyrighted news, that you can't share because of it, of the video compromising the French president, whose seeder has been fired and heavily fined for "copyright violation".

Yes it's the copyright system, a mere excuse for censorship and easy money making that we fight.
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DrPizza

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He is old now and contributing full time on the political aspect of the FSF. I cannot judge of his work on programming these las years, but I doubt that you've taken any time to gather information on his work so I'll leave it at that. The comment on hygiene is still stupid and offensive.
But I have taken the time to do so. AFAIK, RMS isn't even on the gcc steering committee any more. Read some of the comments by then-gcc maintainer "devphil" in this thread. While he describes RMS as a a "skilled and brilliant C and LISP hacker" (which is not the same as being a good developer), he also says that "The GCC infrastructure is very baroque"--a strong indicator that it's just not well-designed. He also says, "RMS is a reactionary fuckhead when it comes to anything other than C or LISP", and that "Remember, in Free Software, you have the freedom to do anything you want -- except disagree with RMS". Also pertinent, he writes "Even when the SC is asked to decide something, they never go to RMS when they can help it, because he's so unaware of modern real-world technical issues and the bigger picture. It's far, far better to continue postponing a question than to ask it, when RMS is involved, because he will make a snap decision based on his own bizarre technical ideas, and then never change his mind in time for the new decision to be worth anything.".

Unaware of modern technical issues, incapable of making decent technical decisions, who designed an architecture that is "very baroque"--these are not virtues in a developer, and do not speak well of his programming.

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His past work is praised by basically everyone, so is emacs.
Well, no, this really isn't true, as above.

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RMS's  wanted to give a copy of a program to someone else that's why we are backing free software.
Well, yes, actually. See "social cohesion". @_@.

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Not the fact that proprietary os are black boxes, not the invasion of privacy, the ever growing restriction on the user's right, the license imbroglio, the books and song deleted on the user's computer because the sore that sold them closed.
Nor it is because enforcing anti piracy laws means controlling all information transiting in the Internet.
No, actually. Not any of those things. The FSF predates all of them.

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Of course, the reek of Richard Stallman kept you off his website, and you don't know anything about copyrighted news, that you can't share because of it, of the video compromising the French president, whose seeder has been fired and heavily fined for "copyright violation".
What are you talking about?

Again: if I write a piece of software and let you use it, exactly why are you entitled to let other people use it too? What is it that you've done that you believe gives you that entitlement? Where does this moral obligation to share the software arise?
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Zombie

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I think we all have very different views here of what copyright is, but let me point out that copyright was originally intended to keep companies from stealing material from each other. This means that 2K wouldn't be able to use material licensed by EA in their games and so on. Copyright has recently become an issue for customers because companies feel like blaming waning sales for crappy games on piracy.

Here's a fact: Console piracy far outstrips PC piracy. Sounds crazy, but more people have consoles than PCs. Also, do you know how easy it is to mod a console? I've had customers come in and ask us if we mod consoles or loudly brag how their 360 is modded and they use an external HDD with all the games on it they want. If it wasn't breaking forum rules, I could probably pop on Google and find several sites that offer modding assistance or tutorials that show you how to do it yourself. Nintendo has tons of piracy going on, yet they regularly post in the black every fiscal year. This means that, overall, they are making money.

Now, the comment made that most pirates are the biggest consumers of media? Possibly. This isn't too farfetched and, honestly, the people that would pirate most are people who don't have the money in the first place. I could argue here that piracy may actually help artists and developers in the long run because it expands their market to everyone with some know-how. Instead of paying customers finding that new CD you just put out and liking it, anyone with a computer and torrent software can find it. If they like it, they buy it. These people then come to your concerts and make you more money. This, however, doesn't exactly transfer over to developers for obvious reasons. It can help them, however, because people can actually try the game before they buy it. More often than not, purchasing the game to get support and patches and other cool stuff is just what you do. It's the reason you're buying the game. You're not buying code at that point, you're paying to get support and patches made and other cool little tidbits.

I think an easy way to abate piracy enough to ensure it doesn't truly harm sales is to require registering on the forums and a simple CD-Key/Machine-Key verification. This makes sure that pirates are less likely to be able to download patches and obtain technical support. If you want technical support, buy the product. That simple.

As far as open-source being hurt by piracy... Pirates tend to be the #1 supporters and spreaders of open-source software. IRC warez channels, torrent websites, and download sites all tend to host any open-source software they can get. It's one of the many reasons why large companies that were considering the blackbox approach to hardware (blacklisting any non-licensed software) simply did not care about open-source OSes and software. Of course, the blackbox approach got squished because, frankly, consumers hate any DRM.

When you buy something, you don't want to be asked several times "DID YOU REALLY BUY THIS?! ARE YOU SURE YOU AREN'T A PIRATE?!"

Moral arguments, by the way, are just a silly thing. This is not an argument of morals. This is an argument of the bottom line effects of piracy. I highly doubt that piracy significantly effects the bottom line for a simple reason I've stated before: There is no guarantee that pirates are "lost sales" You cannot lose something you never had and, most likely, pirates would have never bought the product in question anyway.

It's all a question of demographic. If pirates aren't the purchasing demographic and represent a portion of people that never were, then why would DRM change that? All it does is make paying customers angry and upset at being treated like criminals in an attempt to recoup sales that were never lost in the first place. In fact, I would wager that companies like Ubisoft have lost more money and sales due to invasive and batshit insane DRM than they would have gained by their foolish attempt to force people who wouldn't have bought the software in the first place to buy the software.

Let's review one simple fact: People who aren't going to buy are just not going to buy. Businesses are ignoring the main tenet of retail and that is to entice the consumer to buy their product. You don't punish consumers for what shoplifters do. You don't raise prices because your store gets robbed. You simply offer incentives to buy, which do not extend to people who steal. In the retail business, a receipt is proof of a sale and gets you customer support. In software this is equivalent to your CD/License key. This is your proof that you are a paying customer and deserve support. We identify forged receipts in similar ways we identify fake CD/License keys.

Spoiler: For Blacken (click to show/hide)
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Phmcw

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Oh I didn't say that RMS is the most loved guys arount, and quite a few poeple that know him seems to find him unnerving to say the least. 
As I said he is old, and don't program as much as before, but he IS know as a skilled and brilliant hacker.
I won't bicker on the quality of his work, as it's not he point, but I still want to point out that he worked pretty hard, and that calling him a guy who never worked is lying.

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No, actually. Not any of those things. The FSF predates all of them.

I don't understand you here. What does that mean? That the FSF is solving or creating the problem?

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    Of course, the reek of Richard Stallman kept you off his website, and you don't know anything about copyrighted news, that you can't share because of it, of the video compromising the French president, whose seeder has been fired and heavily fined for "copyright violation".

What are you talking about?


http://www.rue89.com/making-of/2008/07/09/images-off-de-sarkozy-france3-porte-plainte-contre-x
http://www.rue89.com/2008/07/02/images-off-de-sarkozy-france3-menace-rue89-de-proces-0

Here, French television channel TF1 using copyright laws to try to stop he leak of a "off screen" video of French president Nicolas Sarkozy. Only in French I'm afraid, couldn't find any site in English.

For other infamous use of copyright law /intellectual property

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html
http://www.dancewithshadows.com/pillscribe/huge-seizure-of-indian-generic-drugs-at-eu-ports-india-global-ngos-cry-foul/
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-01-29-media-groups-voice-concern-over-fifa-restrictions

For even more just see http://www.stallman.org/archives/2010-mar-jun.html
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Deathworks

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Hi!

Zombie: I do agree with most of what you are saying. However, there are a few minor points where I disagree:

As you mentioned, the bottom line is important, and that is the thing I mean when saying that piracy is actually anti- open source. I think it is reasonable and quite understandable to assume that commercial companies like EA or Microsoft are not too fond of open source which basically competes against them putting pressure on them to prove that their product is worth the money. You can't blame them for considering that dangerous competition, I think. I also agree that piracy probably does not actually harm the industry as much as they make it seem. But when you look carefully, you see quite a tendency to use the claim of the piracy threat to introduce methods that are designed to restrict/hamper open source development - like the DRM hardware I mentioned earlier. Pirates do not hurt open source directly, but they prepare the ground for a media campaign against open source which many people are probably going to believe.

I also disagree on the notion that moral arguments are silly. At least for me, the piracy issue is mostly an issue of lacking respect, and thus an important issue. It furthers an attitude in people that I find highly distressing and harmful for the internet communities - not because of any net profit for anyone, but because of how it may cause damage to the atmosphere.

Deathworks
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eerr

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Them pirates got no class.


How to kill pirating: dress the pirates up in suits.

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