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[Hyndis]

If you pit/pond the vermin and have cats they will eat the vermin.

This also happens if a dwarf happens to adopt one of the vermin. He will be swarmed by cats, who will then eat the pet vermin.

[Hyperturtle]

My cats are shelled aquatics, so that isn't much of an option for me.

On the plus side I have numerous tame turtles running around the fortress.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Thinking about it more carefully, it's probably more likely that what triggered elves to bring nothing but cloth in 40d was not only giving them good deals but also your fortress value increasing rapidly (due to artifacts or Adamantine) - when your fortress suddenly becomes really rich, they catch wind of it and decide to bring a bit too much stuff.

Now, that is really a theory that makes sense and explains the different experiences. While making sweet deals with the elves, I always play minimalized fortresses, so I never breached adamantine which of course limited the value of my artifacts. And since I also keeped population low, I also had limited production of wealth.

Deathworks

[CppThis]

Also, not all cages with contents are listed as such, ie a cage with a chipmunk in it will be listed as "Alder Cage" and not "Chipmunk Cage" so you can inadvertedly buy vermin with your cages.

Blimey, that answers some questions I had regarding why my new fort (which buys a lot of cages from elves) had four pages of tame bats when I went to assign some animals. 

[smigenboger]

I'm certain the amount they bring is based on if you bought stuff from them the year before, as both the humans and the elves end up with a huge conga line if I purchase things every year. I always get wood from the humans and animals from the elves, and I get a disproportionate amount of wood offered, but the elves always just bring everything in proportion to what they normally do (with lots of cloth).

I'd love to have the search function for purchasing things.

[Hyperturtle]

Keep in mind that a lot of that "useless" stuff is worth trading to the next caravan that arrives.  For example, a number of instruments and puzzleboxes (I will buy the most expensive ones, initially to see if any dwarfs would claim them as owned items) can be worth significantly more in trade to the humans and dwarfs.  Same goes with useless junk those guys bring--often it can be worth more to another race.

So, if your fortress isn't generating a lot of wealth, you can trade for items the old fashioned way--by being a good trader and buying things you only intend to sell later at a higher price.

You can tell by looking at the appraised trading value on what is being offered for the item on the trading screen and then view that item specifically to see its actual true appraised value.  Sometimes an item is worth less; simply don't trade it unless you need to.

Or claim the whole thing or lay waste to the caravan and trade their stuff anyway!

[Miggy]

On the subject of stealing from elves, it's worth nothing that if you set up a hospital with coffers/bags, and you have no thread or cloth yourself, your dwarves will simply go and fetch it from the trade depot, despite it not being yours. Don't think the elves mind that. After all, it is an emergency, right?

Of course, only works in 2010 where hospitals exist. :p

[Supercharazad]

Hi!

Doing trade with the elves in all my fortress I can point out the following:

* Vermin does have a trade value which varies from species to species (turtles are worth 10, for instance, while some of the birds are worth 30).

* Yes, the vermin are incorrectly listed for your cage assigning. It can be quite annoying if you actually buy vermin and want to experiment with it.

* I can't confirm that myth about the cloth and the angry elves bringing the good stuff. In my experience, elves trade like everyone else - you buy a lot of animals, they bring more animals next year; you buy lots of drinks, they bring even more drinks next year. I vaguely recall the tendency towards cloth in the 2D versions, but trading with elves has never been a problem in the 3D versions.

Deathworks

Nah, it was found a long time ago that cloth is the most "valuable" item the elves can bring, you give them good deals, and just like humans and dwarves, they bring more "valuable" stuff, like cloth. You have to keep a balance with elves, magma the first one, magma the next one, give the next one outragous profits, magma, profits, magma, profits...ect.

[AngleWyrm]

On the subject of stealing from elves, it's worth nothing that if you set up a hospital with coffers/bags, and you have no thread or cloth yourself, your dwarves will simply go and fetch it from the trade depot, despite it not being yours. Don't think the elves mind that. After all, it is an emergency, right?

A great way to wind up with all the trader's stuff:

• Build a second trade depot after the traders start unloading
• Deconstruct the original trade depot after the traders are done unloading.

The traders abandon their stuff, and head over to the new depot, while your peasants rake in the booty  :P

[immibis]

Nah, it was found a long time ago that cloth is the most "valuable" item the elves can bring, you give them good deals, and just like humans and dwarves, they bring more "valuable" stuff, like cloth. You have to keep a balance with elves, magma the first one, magma the next one, give the next one outragous profits, magma, profits, magma, profits...ect.

In DF2010, they seem to actually bring more "valuable" stuff as well as more "less valuable" stuff when you give them more deals. Meaning you get more useless cloth etc, but also more animals etc. Which is slightly unfortunate since it removes one of the best reasons to hate elves.

[orbcontrolled]

On the subject of stealing from elves, it's worth nothing that if you set up a hospital with coffers/bags, and you have no thread or cloth yourself, your dwarves will simply go and fetch it from the trade depot, despite it not being yours. Don't think the elves mind that. After all, it is an emergency, right?

A great way to wind up with all the trader's stuff:

• Build a second trade depot after the traders start unloading
• Deconstruct the original trade depot after the traders are done unloading.

The traders abandon their stuff, and head over to the new depot, while your peasants rake in the booty  :P

Of course all these clever theft methods are moot because the game has no real concept of theft yet. There is only "how much did we come with?", "how much did we leave with?", and "was this a profitable trip?".

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Nah, it was found a long time ago that cloth is the most "valuable" item the elves can bring, you give them good deals, and just like humans and dwarves, they bring more "valuable" stuff, like cloth. You have to keep a balance with elves, magma the first one, magma the next one, give the next one outragous profits, magma, profits, magma, profits...ect.

That long time ago must have been the 2D versions, then. Because, as I said before, I never caused harm to the elves, engaged in fair trading with them, and never got the only-cloth-problem. Instead, I did get the bears and eagles I wanted.

Deathworks

[immibis]

Hi!

Hi!

Nah, it was found a long time ago that cloth is the most "valuable" item the elves can bring, you give them good deals, and just like humans and dwarves, they bring more "valuable" stuff, like cloth. You have to keep a balance with elves, magma the first one, magma the next one, give the next one outragous profits, magma, profits, magma, profits...ect.

That long time ago must have been the 2D versions, then. Because, as I said before, I never caused harm to the elves, engaged in fair trading with them, and never got the only-cloth-problem. Instead, I did get the bears and eagles I wanted.

Deathworks

It happened up until 0.31.01, AFAIK.

Deathworks

[Deathworks]

Hi!

If your information is correct, then it was an inconsistent behavior. I have been buying exotic animals from the elves in 3D versions before 31.01 and never witnessed that cloth thing happening.

However, the theory Quietust proposed may explain the differing experiences we have about that.

Deathworks

[Supercharazad]

Hi!

If your information is correct, then it was an inconsistent behavior. I have been buying exotic animals from the elves in 3D versions before 31.01 and never witnessed that cloth thing happening.

However, the theory Quietust proposed may explain the differing experiences we have about that.

Deathworks

Nope, for me I always gave them awesome deals, they always came with cloth, I stopped giving them good deals since I had too much cloth, they eventaully cme back year after year with less cloth and more animals. Mind, this WAS in 40d, but it still works for me in 30.04