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Author Topic: Red Dead Redemption  (Read 2044 times)

Apple Master

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2010, 01:54:37 pm »

They didn't market it as "GTA IN THE WILD WEST" that's just for stupid people.
And it's not the same division of Rockstar.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2010, 02:06:54 pm »

That's funny. Because the promo material I saw back in the day was like "Hey guys, Rockstar is making a Wild West shoot-em-up game. Your guy can steal horses and ride them around shooting people, completing missions and stuff. You know, Rockstar, the people who make GTA?"

That and the previews for the game in various places talked about the things the game would do differently and the same as GTA. It was pretty clear people were comparing the two form the get-go.
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Apple Master

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2010, 02:09:41 pm »

Comparing, Yes. Using as an easy way to describe the gameplay, Yes. But Rockstar never said it.
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fenrif

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2010, 02:10:02 pm »

There are whores. His character is an evil cowboy. Yet he cannot make his evil cowboy hire the whores.

It's expecting something that is in the game, and in the milieu, and is totally within reason.

Your example of AK47s and TV is pointless regarding the whores because nobody would expect those things in the game.

I'll agree too that nobody should expect helicopters.

And yes, if there is a moral slider bar, I expect to be able to actually play a character ranging anywhere from good to evil. That's the point of the slider bar! And I agree that it would have been better to just leave it out than to include a half-finished mechanic. Of course, the ideal outcome would be that they actually finished the game. But business decisions often force undesirable design decisions.

Repeatable missions don't make sense. It's like if you destroy a building and you turn around and it's there again. It's a continuity issue, and possibly an issue with padding out game length using repeatable content.

It's legitimate to compare the game to GTA if it's made by the same people and they market it as a wild west sandbox like GTA is a modern gangster sandbox.

His character is an evil cowboy Who does everything he does in the game for the love of his wife and child. You cant murder your brother (or cousin, whoever that annoying guy was) in GTA4... You can't cheat on your wife in RDR. The only evil thing you can't do is goto whores. It seems like Andir's entire problem with the morality of the game is that you can't visit whores. You can still be a cold blooded bastard, or a paragon of justice. You just can't whore around.

You can still play an evil character. The cut-scenes are done in a way that your character can be ambiguously good or ambiguously bad (allthough I don't feel it works very well TBH). The moral slider bar works very well for what it's intended. I don't see at all how it isn't finished, please give some examples. Yeah most of the story missions give you honour, but infamy isn't hard to come by. And you can buy a bandanna to stop anything changing your morality bar at all.

Repeatable missions don't make sense? So races don't make sense if you do them more than once? Or the horse breaking missions? How about the returning the stolen cart, or stopping the thief missions you get when you're in the wilderness? Repeatable missions make sense sometimes. Don't act like it's some entirely new unkown phenomenon to RDR, or that it's a completely unworkable stop-gap to lazy programming.

As I keep saying, there are problems with the game. Some of them serious. These just aren't them. If you're going to criticise the game, talk about the huge amount of wierd bugs, system link being broken, the lacklustre writing, etc. Focusing on not being able to whore it up, and not having helicopters just seems ridiculous.
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Apple Master

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2010, 02:14:47 pm »

System link is fixed.
And the glitches are mostly awesome xD
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fenrif

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2010, 02:24:21 pm »

System link is fixed.
And the glitches are mostly awesome xD

System link is fixed if you have internets on your 360. So it's still broken. :P

My dad has had to compeltely restart his game because some bug occured thats screwed up his savegame. I've had to restart my 360 multiple times because of various bugs that've broken the game completely.

Still fun though. :P
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Andir

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2010, 02:42:52 pm »

Focusing on not ...having helicopters just seems ridiculous.
I never said that.  I stated that that's one aspect I found fun with GTA along with the size of the map and the fact that there are more missions.  I never said they needed helicopters them in RDR.  In fact, I said: "I understand it's a reach to have those in RDR."

The stereotypical wild west cowboy who defied the law also partook in what was considered by some to be sinful pleasures.  Heck, the game even has people standing outside decrying the drinking and prostitution... not being able to branch that avenue is immersion breaking, IMHO.  It's also not the only reason don't find the game fun, as you continue to try to point out.

The lack of ability to hold up a train for anything more than $10, the cut scenes for skinning animals, the horse thief who always shows up in the same spot (they could have had several dynamic events even though you claim that it's not the norm... it's another game.  The least they can do it add more ability to the game engine.)  I listed several reasons that you ignored.  (And it makes me think you are pointing out the prostitution thing on an ad hominem basis.)
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fenrif

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2010, 03:03:46 pm »

Focusing on not ...having helicopters just seems ridiculous.
I never said that.  I stated that that's one aspect I found fun with GTA along with the size of the map and the fact that there are more missions.  I never said they needed helicopters them in RDR.  In fact, I said: "I understand it's a reach to have those in RDR."

The stereotypical wild west cowboy who defied the law also partook in what was considered by some to be sinful pleasures.  Heck, the game even has people standing outside decrying the drinking and prostitution... not being able to branch that avenue is immersion breaking, IMHO.  It's also not the only reason don't find the game fun, as you continue to try to point out.

The lack of ability to hold up a train for anything more than $10, the cut scenes for skinning animals, the horse thief who always shows up in the same spot (they could have had several dynamic events even though you claim that it's not the norm... it's another game.  The least they can do it add more ability to the game engine.)  I listed several reasons that you ignored.  (And it makes me think you are pointing out the prostitution thing on an ad hominem basis.)

Lol at editing my quote to make your point, then decrying me for talking about one of your points more than others. :P

Yes the game doesn't let you completely immerse yourself in a fully realistic 3d cowboy world, complete with all the tastes, smells, sounds, and sensations a real cowboy would've experienced. That's beacuse it's a video game, not some magical imagination machine. Every game has things that break immersion, as I've pointed out with many examples in GTA.

Just because some cowboys went to whores doesn't mean your guy needs to. Much in the same vein that some criminals decide to mend their ways and work for the police, or set up youth centres for inner-city gang children yet you can't do that in GTA. Is it immersion breaking? arguably yes, but that's just how video games work. There are always limits on what you can and can't do. You are being presented with a pre-made character that has very very specific goals and motives. You're asking to be able to do things that run completely contrary to the one defining point of the character. See: why you can't kill nico's cousin/brother/whoever he is in GTA4 because he's annoying.

How much money do you want for holding up the train? Perhaps people who get on the train should be given thousands of dollars so you can steal it from them? Maybe in GTA hookers should be given thousands of dollars so you can steal it from them too. Noone in RDR carries around much money. The only people I've ever seen with more than 10 dollars are people i've either just paid, or have lost a game of poker/blackjack too. I imagine most people in the wild west didn't ride around with their life savings in their pockets.

I've allready talked at length about the morality mechanism, you seem to be ignoring that now I guess since you aren't responding to any of it, so I'll avoid rehashing all of it again. See my other posts if you're curious. Ditto for the size difference between GTA4.

All sandbox games that have repeatable missions don't randomly generate them, or whatever it is you want. In GTA4 if you do a race, and then do it again its the same race both times. If you want a different race you go somewhere else. It works the same way in RDR.

Anyway, you seem to be pretty adamant to not like RDR because it's not GTA4, so to each his own I suppose. Just thought I'd post a different opinion for anyone considering getting it. It's a damn good game. Far from perfect, but definatly better than GTA4 in my opinion. Just don't go into it expecting it to wank you off while granting 3 magic wishes for you while it makes you a grilled cheese. :P

---------edit:

P.S. I'm fairly sure you couldn't hold up the trains in GTA4 either?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 03:08:21 pm by fenrif »
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Grakelin

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2010, 03:36:53 pm »

I haven't played RDR, but I actually think redoable missions sounds pretty nice. I always wished there was a way to replay my favorite missions in the GTA games without having to play through the whole game again and make extra saves.
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Apple Master

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2010, 03:42:45 pm »

Also, on a really base level RDR isn't meant to be super immersive, it's not an RPG.
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Grakelin

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2010, 03:45:03 pm »

All games should be super immersive.

EDIT: In GTAIV, I like to play it straight as if Niko Bellic actually had needs and things. I don't bother eating, because that takes too long, but I always sleep at night time and change my clothes in the morning. I even like to steal a particular car that I consider to be 'Niko's Car', though it culminates in a lot of time stalking the street looking for that particular vehicle. When it gets destroyed, I say 'Niko's Car is destroyed, oh no!' and then I either wait til I think he would have purchased a new one or go without for a while. Strangely, I'm good enough at the game now that I've never had 'Niko's Car' be destroyed.

It adds a certain sense of awesome to the game, though.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 03:48:18 pm by Grakelin »
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Rakonas

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2010, 03:54:25 pm »

I think both sides of the arguement are being really silly. Both of the games are fun, but RDR is NEW!
Yay, new fun games!
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Andir

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2010, 03:57:33 pm »

Focusing on not ...having helicopters just seems ridiculous.
I never said that.  I stated that that's one aspect I found fun with GTA along with the size of the map and the fact that there are more missions.  I never said they needed helicopters them in RDR.  In fact, I said: "I understand it's a reach to have those in RDR."
Lol at editing my quote to make your point, then decrying me for talking about one of your points more than others. :P
Apparently we need to discuss the English language here.  The sentence you constructed...
Quote
Focusing on not being able to whore it up, and not having helicopters just seems ridiculous.
There is an implied subject: That would be me/us.
It has two points: One being "to whore it up" and the other "not having helicopters" to which you apply "seems ridiculous" to.  I was referring to one of those points and thus the edit.  You keep insisting I only look at the "whoring it up" aspect.  I'm differentiating these aspects because I believe complaining solely about a game not allowing you to "whore it up" is ridiculous.  You get no argument from me on that.  I simply stated that it's not stereotypical of the wild west "bad guy" modus operandi.  It breaks immersion.  I also stated that games should evolve.  If you are happy with Rockstar kicking out the same game over and over without upgrading the feature set or adding more content, then I congratulate you for being able to find happiness in something so shallow and repetitive.

You keep repeating that "it's still fun" and I don't agree.  You know we don't have to agree, right?  I came here stating that I don't think it is fun.  They removed aspects of Old West lore and that saddens me.  No, people on trains shouldn't be given thousands of dollars in a game breaking fashion, but they could place a safe on board that you could crack.  They could give these people at least a little spending cash.

What you are doing is disagreeing with me, then over-exaggerating my claims to make them sound silly.  I'm not sure why.  Did I attack your livelihood and children when I said this game wasn't fun for me?

Also, on a really base level RDR isn't meant to be super immersive, it's not an RPG.
Yeah, it's totally an RPG.  You are Role Playing a wild west cowboy in the Game of RDR, just as you were Role Playing an Immigrant in the Game of GTA.  Just because it doesn't have swords and dragons with stat points doesn't mean you aren't playing a role.

Coming from GTA, I was expecting more.  This being a continuation game in the "Rockstar RPG" line I had hoped they would do it better than the last instead of doing the exact same thing or in this case, less.
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Apple Master

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2010, 04:04:40 pm »

Yes because RPG's have to have swords obviously oh wait Deus Ex.
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Andir

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Re: Red Dead Redemption
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2010, 04:06:49 pm »

Yes because RPG's have to have swords obviously oh wait Deus Ex.
Yet for some reason you insist that RDR is not an RPG?
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."
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