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Author Topic: Yet Another Startup Discussion  (Read 1735 times)

Bronze Dog

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Yet Another Startup Discussion
« on: May 21, 2010, 04:58:00 pm »

Version: The new May release.

I'm still a newbie at DF, trying to figure out a starting strategy. I've got some Mega Construction dreams that involve clear glass and some aqueducts. I thought I'd get some input on the different phases of growing my fortress.

1. Location, location, location: Since I'm planning on making a lot of clear glass to build a giant hourglass, obviously I'm going to need sand and a steady supply of wood for pearlash. For the aqueducts, I'm going to need a river to supply the water. A desert would go well with the hourglass theme, but the need for wood if I want to make a clear glass one suggests a place with plenty of trees. Any suggestions on what else to look out for?

2. Starting skills: Which skills are the most vital for the starting 7? I've heard it's important to start out with a doctor, since it's hard to train one up unless you're lucky enough to get a migrant with medical talent. Some friends suggested that I don't split miners into other roles, since, as I've noticed in the games I've played so far, mining takes up a LOT of time.

3. Embarking supplies: I don't have much specific in mind, though some suggestions on priorities would be nice. I think I might risk doing without the anvil.

4. Starting construction: I'm always uncertain about what buildings and rooms I need first, how much farmland to make, how to build with expansion in mind, etcetera.

5. Defense: I've played a few short games so far, trying to figure out just how to get things running smoothly, but I haven't faced an enemy in battle, yet. I'm thinking of making the main entrance to my fort only accessible by a trench with a drawbridge: When the enemy comes, I raise the drawbridge, forcing them to take a secondary winding path full of traps.

Problem I've had before: in 40d, I had a nasty thing happen with my hunter/butcher: He'd drop his catch at the butcher shop and leave it to rot as he'd go back out for another kill. Anything I should know, other than possibly separating the labors to different dwarves?
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NecroRebel

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2010, 05:57:58 pm »

1. In the new releases since the one on the 1st April, surface trees matter significantly less; you can always dig down to the caverns and there'll be underground trees there, you can dig out and muddy further artificial tree farms, and there's often an unlimited source of water underground. For clear glass projects, the main concern, above all others, is magma availability; clear glass, if you don't have magma, takes 3 wood to make (1 wood for pearlash and 2 for charcoal to do the potash -> pearlash reaction and the sand/pearlash -> clear glass reaction). Embark on a volcano, or set your worldgen parameters so the magma sea is more readily available by reducing the number of cavern layers to 1, if not both.

2. Having a skilled grower early is always very useful. A doctor is also useful, though if you're careful you can prevent any injuries until you've got time to arrange minor "accidents" to hurt people so a doctor can train. A skilled carpenter is also nice to produce quality beds for early happy thoughts from decent bedrooms, and a skilled mason similarly helps make a nice early dining room.

3. Whether or not you bring an anvil matters far less now than it did in 40d; in 40d, you got ~1400 points and anvils cost 1000, while now you get ~1300 but anvils cost 100. Food and drink are top priority; you should have ~40 food and 80 drink, minimum. That'll tide you over until winter, even with feeding migrants, and by that time you should be able to have farms and stills up and producing. Other than that, raw materials are nice (especially wood), as are livestock (especially dogs), and tools.

4. Playstyles vary drastically from person to person. Myself, I always start by digging out a large space for a stockpile while my carpenter makes beds, then make a few bedrooms, then move everything from the wagon into the stockpile space. Once that's done, farms get dug out and irrigated, temporary workshops are set up for masonry and mechanics while a moat is dug and a drawbridge set up, permanent workshops are arranged for food and booze, and then the early stages are more-or-less done. For farmland, I usually have too much; you can feed a sizable fort on 25 tiles producing plump helmets year-round, but I often make 4 farm plots that take a variety of seeds that are each ~33 tiles.

5. Defense is another thing that varies dramatically with playstyle. I always get a drawbridge or two over a moat or two (a habit learned when playing with the Orc mod in 40d) and, if needed, simply seal the gates and wait out sieges. Otherwise, forcing enemies down a well-trapped corridor or into a more complicated deathtrap are effective methods, as are methods to seperate enemies into smaller groups that dwarves then mob, as are, later in the game when you've got better soldiers, simply sending your heroes out to take down the enemy.



Hunters should not be butchers. Hunting is a higher-priority task than butchering, so a hunter/butcher will almost always ignore the corpses to go hunt more. Butchery is an important enough task that your butcher(s) should do nothing but; nothing is worse than designating a kitten for slaughter, only to have it adopt someone before your butcher gets to it because the butcher was busy cooking, except perhaps a dragon's corpse rotting because of the same reason.
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Bronze Dog

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2010, 07:00:56 pm »

Looks like I guessed right about the hunting and butchering problem, then. Thanks, Necro.

So, I could probably embark in a desert (with some starting wood) and probably dig down to find a cavern with tower caps, then? Any tips on what to do about the creepy crawlies in there?

As for magma in the new version, about how many levels would I be looking at in the default world gen? I had thought about pumping magma up to a workshop level with a pump stack powered by some water generators and/or an array of water wheels at a brook.
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NecroRebel

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2010, 07:16:43 pm »

Looks like I guessed right about the hunting and butchering problem, then. Thanks, Necro.

So, I could probably embark in a desert (with some starting wood) and probably dig down to find a cavern with tower caps, then? Any tips on what to do about the creepy crawlies in there?
The easiest thing to do is to isolate an area with an airlock set up, put a few dwarves and some rocks and/or blocks in the airlocked area, then close off the airlock from the fort proper, open it to the caverns, and build a wall around a section of cavern. That'll keep out all but flyers, and you'll have no chance of losing anyone but those few dwarves. Then, as possible, increase the height of the wall until you've got a whole, totally-impenetrable section of cavern for your use. Finally, make artificial caverns, muddy them, and wait; in ~2 1/2 years, tower-caps and such will grow up within.

The other option, of course, is military; just get some decent soldiers prepped and go kill anything that causes problems for your woodcutters. Note that an airlock setup is also quite useful for this as, again, it minimizes the risk to your fort proper.

Quote
As for magma in the new version, about how many levels would I be looking at in the default world gen? I had thought about pumping magma up to a workshop level with a pump stack powered by some water generators and/or an array of water wheels at a brook.
Magma can be 100+ z-levels below the surface. We're talking 10-15 z-levels above the first cavern, 2-5 z-levels for the cavern, another 5-10 before the second cavern, another 2-5 for that cavern, another 5-10 before the third cavern, another 2-5, and then 1-5 before the magma. Even on totally flat terrain, magma is usually 40 levels below the surface, and sometimes it's far, far deeper. That's why you'll want to find a volcano, or hope you get lucky and get a magma pipe to the first cavern level, if you use the default worldgens.

On the other hand, if you turn the cavern number down to 1, you've just got the top ~10 levels before the cavern, then the last cavern (everything that appears in the deepest level normally seems to spawn if you've got only 1 cavern), a short distance more, and then the magma. Less room to play with underground, but if you're building clear glass stuff I'm guessing you're doing it on the surface anyway, so that matters little.
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Bronze Dog

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2010, 07:34:53 pm »

Okay, I guess I will be cutting the cavern number down. I had the thought of sealing off an exploratory stairwell, but an airlock with building stone sounds like a much better idea, since having a nearby supply would expedite things.

And yes, I'm building the clear glass above ground in the form of a giant hourglass tower. Also going to make some greenhouses with green glass ceilings, though that's a much more modest goal. The other big goal is an aqueduct that essentially raises a river, sending it all around the map, making 120° turns at every support tower. Ideas on giving this a point beyond looking cool would be appreciated.

Hmm... If I'm going to commit to trying to build in the desert with a river or brook, I should probably check up on other methods of irrigation, since I doubt I'll have any murky pools to tap into.
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o_O[WTFace]

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2010, 10:24:06 pm »

First level caverns are generally safe.  If stuff appears just have someone hit it with an axe or a pick.  I would embark somewhere with a brook, breach the first cavern layer, dig out a whole Z level somewhere and flood it so trees will grow.  Just 1-2 caverns aren't going to be enough wood (potentially?).  The magma sea should only be like 50 z levels down, its probly easier just to put some workshops down there. 

As for your river in the sky, you could try a giant version of something like http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Mist that.  There are no floors, the water is just pulled around by pumps before it has a chance to fall.  Obviously a bigger version is going to need some intense engineering and power.  Mega bonus points if you do it with magma, or both at the same time!
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CppThis

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2010, 01:13:48 am »

Random points that dont correlate directly to OP's:

1. Consider tweaking up the amount of embark points and bringing along some steel bars.  Due to military bugs it's essential that you give your dorfs the best gear from the start, as equipment upgrading is erratic at best.  DF has no real difficulty selection, which is unfortunate but a similar effect can be had with judicious init tweaks.

2. Keep in mind you can trade for things like wood and raw glass, as well as select it on embark.  Raw materials are really the main thing I use the dwarven caravan for.

3. I tend to dig an L-shaped cliff entrance that spans 2+ z-levels before getting to the fort proper.  That way I have a good selection of potential chokepoints, trap areas and ballista coverage and a minimum of "damn, if only I hadn't dug out that meeting hall right below here" moments.  Dont bother designing a missile-defensible fort though as marksdorfs are fubar and ballists are pretty weak.

4. Surface farms are your friend.  They work just fine, can be walled off for protection and are a lot easier to get started than underground as they do not require a potentially complicated irrigation procedure.

5. If you're new to DF you might want to think about disabling invaders until youre more skilled and/or the military bugs get ironed out.  You can turn them back on later for a challenge.  I did this and it helped a lot.  If you dont want to, lots of cage traps are your friend.

6. Skills wise I recommend bringing a proficient weapon/armorsmith as those skills are really hard to train up.  Maybe also a carpenter if you need to make sure your wood furniture-making is efficient.  Dont bother with masonry or mining beyond maybe +1 as you'll get lots of that just from digging and doing stuff with all the stone.
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Flaede

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2010, 01:28:23 am »

For your river: Why not have it spiral up and flood in the top of the hourglass?
If you measure the amount of water to enter at any one time, you could (eventually) have magma come in the bottom, and set up obsidian farming inside the hourglass.
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Drawde

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2010, 04:37:50 am »

From what I've noticed, for trees just mine out soil, then breach the caverns.  The underground trees will grow in the soil, without needing irrigation.  You'll need lots of area, but that isn't hard to find, especially on flatter maps.  As long as you don't expose the rooms to the outside, they'll be able to grow underground trees.  And you can seal up the breach right after exposure.

You won't be able to grow underground crops without irrigation though, even on soil.
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warwizard

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2010, 06:04:12 am »

For startups I enable all the labors on every dwarf except for mining/woodcutting/hunting, which are mutually exclusive, this way you do not have jobs waiting on any one dwarf to get to it. If you need to have a high skill dwarf do a particular task set up a second workshop and a manager to assign that workshop to that dwarf. I find that after 2-3 years the Dwarves have all gained decent levels in tasks the fort needs a lot of, and 7-8 novice levels and 14-16 dabbling in things that there is not much need of. Immigrants will have higher level skills than what you can buy, so other than ambushing skill which grants a crossbow and bolts, I generally do not buy skills. For your mega project bring lots of bags of sand 100+ or more they are only 1 point and you get to reuse the bags.

1 pick, no axes, 1 anvil 21 of every plant 6 of every cheap meat, 21 of every booze, 20-40 logs, some ores to make cheap picks and axes some charcoal, gypsum, soap, and 2 dogs male and female. dump the chrutches and splints, you can build them in minutes using the logs you are bringing. A selection of cheap stone and some flux stone and coal. note that the flux stone you bring will need to be forbidden until you are ready to start making steel OR you find flux on your map, or you'll end up with limestone armour stands instead of steel bars. Blocks are useless for reactions so no flux or coal blocks, though a few regular stone blocks are needed for the initial workshops. setup temporary workshops on the surface while your miner starts digging, use the time to smelt your starting ore, make logs into beds, curtches and splints, turn your coal into coke and forge the rest of your tools make plaster from your gypsum, cook the food, process your pig tails at the farmer's workshop, and loom half the thread into cloth and so on, then dissemble the workshops and move into your diggings. This process will keep all your starting dwarves busy so they are not standing around socializing.

  Tools: 4 picks 2 training axes or copper axes, allowing 5 miners, two woodcutters, note the training axes are wooden and work just fine on chopping down trees.
 Weapons: your choice of 7 steel weapons once you find iron ore and a supply of fuel (need 28 fuel, 8 flux to make 8, 1 bar steel items)
  Medical items: bins table chests, bags, cloth, thread, soap, plaster, splints, crutches, traction bench, beds
 Other items: 3 chair for offices (manager, bookeeper arsenal dwarf) Table for dining room + 4 chairs to go around table
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 06:12:16 am by warwizard »
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Urist Imiknorris

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2010, 07:18:56 pm »

3. Whether or not you bring an anvil matters far less now than it did in 40d; in 40d, you got ~1400 points and anvils cost 1000, while now you get ~1300 but anvils cost 100.

Gonna have to correct your numbers here - in 40d you started with 2060 points (in 31.xx you get 1274).
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Bronze Dog

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Re: Yet Another Startup Discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2010, 03:31:22 pm »

Little bit of thread necromancy, given the popularity of the forum pushing my thread down. Thanks for all the advice, though I've ended up discovering some of it for myself.

Against Necro's advice, I forgot about cutting down to one cavern level, remembering right after I did world generation. I decided to go ahead and try it out and discovered that DF's a lot more addictive when you can run it at a fast clip. I confess I did a couple reloads to avoid being slaughtered by a goblin ambush (second try, I repelled it with 3 casualties) and most recently with a Forgotten Beast. Definitely going to see about improving my military, now. I've got a decent collection of metal armor from traders.

I've got a lot of trees and shrubs already growing on my farm level, as well as future a relocation site. I've also dug down and discovered some shiny and a redacted. Not long after, I found the magma sea, and I'll get to calculating what I'll need to pump *hits chest* it up at the new site. I'll probably deconstruct everything at the old place and seal it off for a bit so that I can figure out better ways of accessing the revealed places. Probably need to get to designating a bunch of new miners and laying out a master plan at the new site.
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Bronze Dog has been feeling rather happy lately. He is fond of scimitars, black bronze, turquoise, and kobolds for their underdog status.