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[Micro102]

Your trying to stamp the definition of a game as needing a player. I don't think the terms game and toy have proper definitions.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Okay, don't argue as much as you like, but since it's not a "configuration" or "mode", it's zero-player by itself, and still a game. In absense of the human player, the game is being played by the AI, the AI is the player. Since the AI is part of the game, the player is the game, so the game is playing itself. An oxymoron or a paradox, ZPG means the game has players while not having players - just different meanings of "player". No human players, but still entities that control the whole of the game. And with that I close my argument. Arguing on the internet, indeed.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Well to be useful, we'd need a better definition than the dictionary one. That would include picking your nose or tying your shoes as a game, if you enjoyed it.

At issue here is that we're effectively experts on playing games. Experts of any field discover the need for more precise definitions for words. Often they invent their own words, and often (such as in sociology or psychology) they just apply more specific definitions to common words.

I understand as much as anyone how irritating and confusing that is.

But we can't really talk about games, except superficially, without more definite terminology.

Unfortunately, in the whole gaming community, we have people who barely understand how to use English trying to help define our shared technical terminology. Needless to say, this makes things difficult.

We also have people who are trying to push an agenda, such as selling a new game, and frame the language used to promote it (or their favorite genre) regardless of its validity for the whole expert conversation. This is just people putting their own petty desires above the need of the community for useful terminology.

And then we have people who just speak from the gut, without worrying about the implications of their suggested terminology. Less grievous than the above, but still a problem when this is a large portion of the conversation. I'd also include people who are not actually game-playing experts but who believe they are.

Of course in this case it seems we just had a disagreement on categorization. Differing desires.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Okay, don't argue as much as you like, but since it's not a "configuration" or "mode", it's zero-player by itself, and still a game. In absense of the human player, the game is being played by the AI, the AI is the player. Since the AI is part of the game, the player is the game, so the game is playing itself. An oxymoron or a paradox, ZPG means the game has players while not having players - just different meanings of "player". No human players, but still entities that control the whole of the game. And with that I close my argument. Arguing on the internet, indeed.

Does this mean, when a missile guidance system engages, that the missile is playing a game in trying to reach its target? I kind of like that idea, it makes them seem a lot more playful.

EDIT: It also means that in DF, every one of your Dwarves is playing DF. Woah.

[Micro102]

In defense of this "game" as a toy, the game does not stop, even if noone is using it. It does not need to entertain anyone, it will continue no matter what.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Actually, yes. A camera-guided missile or bomb has the pilot do the playing, but a guided missile is playing its own game. In fact, there was (at least a project of) a guided missile system that used pigeons as guiding systems. For pigeons, it was a game of "peck at the target on screen".

And in DF, no. None of your dwarves are really playing, since they're not in control of anything. And as per the above example of missiles, since when did games were required to entertain its players? The Olympic Games include some pretty exhausting stuff, I think for the participants it's usually relief when it ends, not entertainment while it lasts.

[Micro102]

anyone want to give me their user name so I can friend you? Or just friend me.

EDIT: Got a "free fall accelerator" and it is in bold print. What does that mean? Does it have an effect on my hero?

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Actually, yes. A camera-guided missile or bomb has the pilot do the playing, but a guided missile is playing its own game. In fact, there was (at least a project of) a guided missile system that used pigeons as guiding systems. For pigeons, it was a game of "peck at the target on screen".

And in DF, no. None of your dwarves are really playing, since they're not in control of anything. And as per the above example of missiles, since when did games were required to entertain its players? The Olympic Games include some pretty exhausting stuff, I think for the participants it's usually relief when it ends, not entertainment while it lasts.

But the dwarf is the embodiment of the AI at the moment he decides what to do, right? Say, sidestepping an attack.

And Olympic Games falls under a different "game" definition in that dictionary I linked. There's a whole lot that falls under "game". I think perhaps what we're doing now might count.

"A period of competition or challenge" would include a fish who is trying to eat another fish, for example.
"The equipment needed for playing certain games" would include a cinder block, if you had planned out a game of Cinder-Block Roundup.

The broadness is the problem. This dictionary doesn't give us an expert definition, it gives us the general definition. And the conversation about what Godville is fell out of the general sphere a while back.

[Nirur Torir]

EDIT: Got a "free fall accelerator" and it is in bold print. What does that mean? Does it have an effect on my hero?

I think bold items are worth more. My working black hole model was bold and sold for 491 gold.

[head]

Mud Golem was eliminated, found pirate leg.

Hmm?

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Clearly the Mud Golem previously ate a pirate.

[Micro102]

I found a poisonous mud golem.....is there even a difference? Do these creatures even have difficulties?

[LeoLeonardoIII]

I found a poisonous mud golem.....is there even a difference? Do these creatures even have difficulties?

Well your character comes along and kills them. I'd call that a difficulty, or at least a setback depending on how thoroughly you did the job.

[head]

i fought a pyramid headed mud golem.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

He ate Pyramid Head.