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[Draco18s]

You're screwed. Or you add fertilizer, in which case the energy comes from the trees you cut down to make lye.

Exactly.  ItchyBeard was implying that dwarves could just use their waste materials to replenish the soil, but they'd add back far less in nutrient value than was used to obtain the item in the first place.

[Kogan Loloklam]

In a closed system, where is the energy coming in that allows energy to be spent powering life?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sea_communities

I dunno about your fortresses, but mine don't have marine snow, bottom plains, or whale falls.

Your right, they don't. Turns out that whales don't swim through caves.

"Chemosynthesis of bacteria provide the energy and organic matter for the whole food web in vent ecosystems. Giant tubeworms can grow to 2.4 m (7 ft 10 in)[6]  tall because of the richness of nutrients. By now, over 300 new species have been discovered at hydrothermal vents.[7]"

Turns out those things that live by the Hydrothermal vents don't have food from whalefalls, marine snow, or bottom plains either.

I guess the message to take from that is that the earth herself can count as a closed system, and yet the processes that have evolved over time support the creatures that evolved in those environments. Furthermore, humans are capable of taking those processes and recreating them in the oddest places. For an example see above about the Tomatoes in the closet.

[Djohaal]

Did you know in chernobyl they found a kind of black mold that uses melanin to absorb useful energy from the radiation emissions?

In other news I want whale falls in my forts. Now. Without water.

[Hyndis]

But its not a closed system.

Goblins arrive every year, bringing plentiful supplies of goblinite and fertilizer. The dwarves drag all of that bounty below ground, where they use all of those fresh goblin bodies to fertilize the plump helmet farms, and then the mushrooms sprout, are harvested, and then brewed into delicious wine. 


Alternatively, just change civ ethics to allow butchering of goblins. Sieges are a great bounty. Iron which I then make into steel, leather, bones, skulls, meat, tallow, and roasts for everyone! 

Who needs farming when you can have -goblin tallow roasts-?

[darkflagrance]

Did you know in chernobyl they found a kind of black mold that uses melanin to absorb useful energy from the radiation emissions?

In other news I want whale falls in my forts. Now. Without water.

Here you go:

[CREATURE:WHALE_FLYING]
   [DESCRIPTION:An enormous airborne mammal that lives in the high skies, living off trace amounts of plankton floating in the atmosphere.]
   [NAME:flying whale:flying whales:flying whale]
   [CASTE_NAME:flying whale:flying whales:flying whale]
   [CHILD:1][GENERAL_CHILD_NAME:flying whale calf:flying whale calves]
   [CREATURE_TILE:'W'][COLOR:1:0:1]
   [LARGE_ROAMING]
   [FLIER]
   [BENIGN][MEANDERER][NATURAL]
   [PETVALUE:1000]
   [BIOME:ANY_LAND]
   [POPULATION_NUMBER:15:30]
   [CLUSTER_NUMBER:3:7]
   [PREFSTRING:utter ridiculousness]
   [BODY:BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD:SIDE_FLIPPERS:TAIL:2EYES:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:MOUTH:RIBCAGE]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_MATERIALS]
      [REMOVE_MATERIAL:HAIR]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_TISSUES]
      [REMOVE_TISSUE:HAIR]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:VERTEBRATE_TISSUE_LAYERS:SKIN:FAT:MUSCLE:BONE:CARTILAGE]
   [SELECT_TISSUE_LAYER:HEART:BY_CATEGORY:HEART]
    [PLUS_TISSUE_LAYER:SKIN:BY_CATEGORY:THROAT]
      [TL_MAJOR_ARTERIES]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HUMANOID_RIBCAGE_POSITIONS]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SINEW:SINEW_TEMPLATE]
   [TENDONS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]
   [LIGAMENTS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]
   [HAS_NERVES]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BLOOD:BLOOD_TEMPLATE]
   [BLOOD:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:BLOOD:LIQUID]
   [CREATURE_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
   [GETS_WOUND_INFECTIONS]
   [GETS_INFECTIONS_FROM_ROT]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:PUS:PUS_TEMPLATE]
   [PUS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:PUS:LIQUID]
   [BODY_SIZE:0:0:500000]
   [BODY_SIZE:4:0:10000000]
   [BODY_SIZE:10:0:20000000]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
   [MAXAGE:20:30]
   [ATTACK:SLAP:BODYPART:BY_CATEGORY:TAIL]
      [ATTACK_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE]
      [ATTACK_VERB:slap:slaps]
      [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_PRIORITY:MAIN]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
   [ALL_ACTIVE]
   [NO_DRINK]
   [HOMEOTHERM:10067]
   [SWIMS_INNATE][SWIM_SPEED:500]
   [MUNDANE]
   [CASTE:FEMALE]
      [FEMALE]
   [CASTE:MALE]
      [MALE]
   [SELECT_CASTE:ALL]
      [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SKIN]
         [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:GRAY:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:skin:SINGULAR]
      [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EYE:EYE]
         [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:BLACK:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:eyes:PLURAL]

Now wait for one to die of old age.

[Soadreqm]

living off trace amounts of plankton floating in the atmosphere

Besides geothermal energy (which I doubt could support much of an ecosystem), there's nutrients from aboveground. Mud getting washed down from cave rivers, any animals that live around a cave access point, that sort of thing. And then there's magic. Some blatantly impossible creatures don't make any biological sense, and thus don't have to care about normal rules of ecology. Like the eye beasts that have no mouths and are said to subsist on evil. I can't think of any other existing examples, although they might exist. In any case, coming up with new ones is trivial.

Luminescent fungi that don't need any energy to fuel the luminescence. Mysterious glowing crystals. An animal that eats "energy", meaning that it can convert geothermal heat directly into biomass, and doesn't have to care about how mass-energy equivalence actually works. Animals that just don't have to eat to live and grow. Even though this game is realistic, it still operates on fantasy physics that don't make much sense if you look at them closely.

Also, it'd be cool to have caves that are connected to the ocean, and have whales in them. Or cave whales. Or anti-gravity cave whales, that swim deep in the undertunnels, but occasionally fall upwards towards the more inhabited areas.

[Draco18s]

And then there's magic. Some blatantly impossible creatures don't make any biological sense, and thus don't have to care about normal rules of ecology. Like the eye beasts that have no mouths and are said to subsist on evil. I can't think of any other existing examples, although they might exist. In any case, coming up with new ones is trivial.

While true, I think it would be best if we stayed away from D&D's Underdark rational.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Besides geothermal energy (which I doubt could support much of an ecosystem),  ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_tube_worm

Geothermal energy is sufficient.

I can see how this would work without magic. There are a lot of odd creatures down there. Some of them tend to roll nutrients around and out of where it pools in water. Some creatures live near magma vents. Some would gain their energy from the "eery glowing mist" that comes from HFS. Some of it is stuff that came down from the surface and adapted to the new environment. If earth had cave systems as extensive and connected as these, you'd probably see biodiversity on this sort of level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troglobite
"Stratigraphic barriers, such as rock walls and layers have prevented the dispersal of these animals; consequently species often consist of just a handful of individuals in one cave, or one room of one cave."

Consider the effects of that on developing large predation.  Allow free movement and interaction and you have enough biodiversity for niches to be found and filled, creating a working ecology that supports much larger creatures and higher population concentrations. A little bit of searching and you can find some of the more outragous creatures already living in a cave somewhere on earth, feeding off of stuff such as bat guano.

[Soadreqm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_tube_worm

Geothermal energy is sufficient.

I can see how this would work without magic. There are a lot of odd creatures down there. Some of them tend to roll nutrients around and out of where it pools in water. Some creatures live near magma vents. Some would gain their energy from the "eery glowing mist" that comes from HFS. Some of it is stuff that came down from the surface and adapted to the new environment. If earth had cave systems as extensive and connected as these, you'd probably see biodiversity on this sort of level.

The deep-sea vents DON'T have much of an ecosystem. Dwarf Fortress caves have large predators. There are Jabberers down there. Those things are nearly as big as elephants. Oh, and, uh, the eerie glowing mist IS magic. Obtaining nutrients directly from the fires of hell is definitely a magical source.

I suppose you could forge together an intact ecosystem without using any magic, although I don't see why you'd want to. There's already a lot of magical things down there, ranging from the obviously impossible magma men to the nether caps, which are permanently forced to 0°C, which you won't even notice unless you check the raws.

[nil]

don't forget about bat guano!

On topic:  I agree with almost every said about farming here (longer growing times would be the simplest and possibly the best solution, although I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of basic soil quality simulation requiring either crop rotation or fertilizer both because I have a hard-on for realism and because it would affect old forts more than new ones).  Another thing dwarves could be bad at is reproduction.  Imagine a world where a large immigrant wave consists of five or six dwarves, but a fortress nonetheless has to fight off hundreds of goblins.  The xenophobicly minded could just bunker down and sharpen their axes, but others could choose to use their immense mineral wealth to request/hire mercenaries from their valued trading partners.

A vile force of darkness has arrived!
Dakost Stonehandle, Axedwarf has been struck down.
Vucar Helmutgem, Sworddwarf has been struck down.
Urist Ironstare, Champion has entered a martial trance.
Human war-horns are heard in the distance!
A force of human swordsmen has entered the battle!
The goblins have routed and are fleeing the field!

[Hyndis]

Mercenaries would be interesting. Sometimes merchants are occasionally bugged where the guards stay on the map for a while, and it is quite nice to have several fully armed and armored guards hanging around. They're a great help. If you could hire them on full time so they remain at the trade depot that would be quite awesome. Or some sort of guard post.

Don't give full control over them since they are just mercs, but instead have some sort of building with a GUARD HERE command on it, perhaps also stocking the building with food and booze for the mercs.

[Kogan Loloklam]

The deep-sea vents DON'T have much of an ecosystem. Dwarf Fortress caves have large predators. There are Jabberers down there. Those things are nearly as big as elephants. Oh, and, uh, the eerie glowing mist IS magic. Obtaining nutrients directly from the fires of hell is definitely a magical source.

I suppose you could forge together an intact ecosystem without using any magic, although I don't see why you'd want to. There's already a lot of magical things down there, ranging from the obviously impossible magma men to the nether caps, which are permanently forced to 0°C, which you won't even notice unless you check the raws.

You focus on half of what I say, ignoring the other half.

One square mile sized islands don't have much of an ecosystem either. Especially when compared to a place say, the size of New Zealand, or North America. You have to have a constant food supply to feed a predator. This is why most RL cave species that are predators are so fapping tiny, because there isn't room for a niche. Everything except scale is there for Undersea vents to have a rich ecosystem. Everything except scale is there for RL cave systems to have a rich ecosystem. You don't have to have magic to explain things. You just have to have energy (which geothermal is capable of sustaining, as is the exchange with the surface for higher layers) and room (which you get with a worldwide cavern system)

[Schilcote]

The deep-sea vents DON'T have much of an ecosystem. Dwarf Fortress caves have large predators. There are Jabberers down there. Those things are nearly as big as elephants. Oh, and, uh, the eerie glowing mist IS magic. Obtaining nutrients directly from the fires of hell is definitely a magical source.

I suppose you could forge together an intact ecosystem without using any magic, although I don't see why you'd want to. There's already a lot of magical things down there, ranging from the obviously impossible magma men to the nether caps, which are permanently forced to 0°C, which you won't even notice unless you check the raws.

You focus on half of what I say, ignoring the other half.

One square mile sized islands don't have much of an ecosystem either. Especially when compared to a place say, the size of New Zealand, or North America. You have to have a constant food supply to feed a predator. This is why most RL cave species that are predators are so fapping tiny, because there isn't room for a niche. Everything except scale is there for Undersea vents to have a rich ecosystem. Everything except scale is there for RL cave systems to have a rich ecosystem. You don't have to have magic to explain things. You just have to have energy (which geothermal is capable of sustaining, as is the exchange with the surface for higher layers) and room (which you get with a worldwide cavern system)

So you're complaining that there's nothing wrong?

[Hyndis]

Almost everything fictional, both sci-fi and fantasy, has a gimmick that it needs to work. Without this gimmick the entire thing just falls apart.

Plump helmets (and other mushrooms) are to Dwarf Fortress as dilithium crystals are to Star Trek.

They're the base of the below ground foodchain. All of those forests of mushrooms which are presumably eaten by fungivores, which are then eaten by carnivores.


Accept the mushrooms as they are. Its the bit of magic that makes the entire thing work.

[Schilcote]

Almost everything fictional, both sci-fi and fantasy, has a gimmick that it needs to work. Without this gimmick the entire thing just falls apart.

Plump helmets (and other mushrooms) are to Dwarf Fortress as dilithium crystals are to Star Trek.

They're the base of the below ground foodchain. All of those forests of mushrooms which are presumably eaten by fungivores, which are then eaten by carnivores.


Accept the mushrooms as they are. Its the bit of magic that makes the entire thing work.

Agreed. Now everyone stop arguing and go and dump magma on something. It's the dwarven thing to do.