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[Kogan Loloklam]

... Fine. Lakota. I went to Wiki and learned some great things about all this...

You have a lot more to learn, and this is just a single culture in the HUMAN race. Amazing how much variety can be in a single race, isn't it?

... I would imagine most dwarves aspire for honor and veneration after their death, or at least to have been a part of the creation of great works. So to me, dwarves wouldn't be inclined to take up the plow when they can take up the pick or pike.

The Hopi are a good additional Native American culture to research. Honor and Veneration after death were tied to farming rather than mining or fighting. In some cultures, Mining was the realm of the dispossessed and unwanted. I'm glad to know that to you honor and veneration are tied to combat and mining, but it isn't that way in all parts of the world. Again, it's amazing how much variety you can find in the HUMAN race.

If you wanna discuss how farming in general needs to be adjusted, by all means, but enough with the "dwarves are crappy farmers because of Tolkin and Blizzard!" (or any other argument based on lore that doesn't have cannibalistic elves and kidnapper goblins)
If you want to argue in favor of the Alakotad dwarves being crappy farmers, be my guest. I firmly believe that cultures need more variety. Cultures that have entire jobs disabled isn't a bad thing, as long as it is only restricted to a single culture, and not the entire race. I personally find farming one of the primary skills of a defensive-orientated culture, and find it a much more honorable profession than bonecarving. It seems to me that bone is a base material, and only assign bonecarving to dwarves I don't like. Just the same, I am not advocating making bonecarving hard for dwarves to do. Dwarves being industrious would probably put as much effort learning it as they would farming or mining.

Now are you done forcing your false understanding of the English language on me in support of what you think dwarves are like?

I have never tried to force on you a different view of what a dwarf was like, I just defended my right not to have your view forced on me. My inability to grasp why cupidity has nothing to do with cupid doesn't change that fact. Since I never did what you are accusing me of, I cannot say with certainty that I am finished. Hard to finish a task you never start.

[saarmae]

1. Dwarf Fortress is a fun game and should always stay fun. Loosing your left ring finger and 2 tooths while ripping out a goblin spine is fun. Farming on 26 z levels is not.
Dwarves are fantasy beings, they are not humans. That is to say - maybe they don't need vitamin C at all? Or if they do - maybe their beards convert argon gas into vitamin C.
I only want Dwarf Fortress to be realistic as long as it is still fun.

2. I don't want dwarven fortresses to rely on trade or any outside contact. I embarked on a 2x2 terryfing area, my Axedwarf was immedately drafted into military, fighting off Skeletal and Zombie mountain goats while the other 6 were frantically trying to move goods underground. My dwarves barely managed to seal themselves underground when skeletal giant eagles and skeletal yetis arrived. Unfortunately the Axedwarf was ripped to shreds, his sacrifice bought the others their life. The 6 dwarves lived on their own for 6 YEARS. All immigrants were mercilessly slaughtered by local undead wildlife and goblin ambushes ("Immigrants have come, despite the danger" -> "An ambush!"-> "An ambush!"-> "An ambush!" immigrants + fucking three ambushes AT THE SAME TIME). The seventh year was the first time i saw immigrants but no other dangerous wildlife on the map so i instructed them to pick up some of the better stuff the merchants had dropped and then sealed the now 26 dwarves in. During the first 6 years my few dwarves managed to utilize a river to make a small patch muddy for farming and then mined a whole Z level and made that muddy too, to grow plants and trees.
All this would have been impossible when dwarves would rely on trade (never had a trader survive on my map long enough to reach the depot).

[Nikov]

Now are you done forcing your false understanding of the English language on me in support of what you think dwarves are like?

I have never tried to force on you a different view of what a dwarf was like, I just defended my right not to have your view forced on me. My inability to grasp why cupidity has nothing to do with cupid doesn't change that fact. Since I never did what you are accusing me of, I cannot say with certainty that I am finished. Hard to finish a task you never start.
[/quote]

Rights? You don't have a right to anything here. You particularly don't have the right to have my sarcasm in the quoted post explained to you.

With regards to food, I'm not in favor of dwarves requiring trade. I simply think game mechanics should encourage it. Already I use traid to provide my dwarves with fine elven thread. I'm not forced to do this. I can grow my own rope reeds. Its just not as conenient to me as trading a steel short sword off for a stack of rope reed fiber. Likewise I feel food, through increased demand, decreased productivity, or whatever other mechanism comes into play, should be easier to aquire from a caravan than the fields so we have an encouragement to keep at least one civilization friendly to us for trade, and encouraged to keep the surface surrounding our fortress clear. Its not required. We can always cave farm or have cat slaughterhouses. It just shouldn't be as simple to feed an entire fortress population off basic agriculture as it is now. Freeing up labor from the fields was a big part of the Industrial Revolution, and perhaps fortresses could have the same direction. Do I stay self-sustained, or accept a degree of dependance for a larger labor pool or army? Currently just a handfull of growers can supply an  entire fortress, so there's never that dilemma.

But anyway, thats my view on a quantative game balance question. Not my opinion of dwarves, or how dwarves are like Hopi Indians.

[HAMMERMILL]

I think underground farming should just be more labor intensive or prone to failure compared to aboveground crops. IRL, mushroom cultivation is quite labor intensive and its prone to crop failures from contaiminates from stuff like mold and bacteria that loves to grow on the same stuff mushrooms do.

SO instead of having to mine out hectacres of cave realestate to grow plump helmets, you have the same condensed area thats fruitful, only if you have alot of labor directed to it and you have skilled growers.

This would make it so that early forts rely more on trade and that more of your otherwise useless fortress population will be needed to grow food.

[Ledi]

I think underground farming should just be more labor intensive or prone to failure compared to aboveground crops. IRL, mushroom cultivation is quite labor intensive and its prone to crop failures from contaiminates from stuff like mold and bacteria that loves to grow on the same stuff mushrooms do.

SO instead of having to mine out hectacres of cave realestate to grow plump helmets, you have the same condensed area thats fruitful, only if you have alot of labor directed to it and you have skilled growers.

This would make it so that early forts rely more on trade and that more of your otherwise useless fortress population will be needed to grow food.

*carefully steps around the flames to respond*

But what if you happened to really like an embark location with no neighbours and the dwarven caravan never showed up (my last two volcanic forts XD)? Or you embarked in an area where the local wildlife would rip everyone who entered the map apart (as detailed in a prior reply). If the emphasis was on trade for food in the early game, you would be buggered. I have to put enough thought into the game already, I don't want to have to micromanage basic farming as well as the storage, cooking and eating of said produce - or have to rely on outsiders who may or may not make it to my depot safely.

I could agree with using a little more space for planting - I find that 9 3x3 plots allow for ample rotation and a surplus of food for a 100+ Dwarf fort. Even doubling that wouldn't put too much strain on the space available in a fort, but I feel the 26 z levels discussed in another thread is way overboard. Even one z-level would be too much, considering that it must be irrigated at present, and without running water or a LOT of pools on the surface the only way to get such an area would be hoping that one of the caverns has what you need (and taking the security and frame rate hit that goes with finding a cavern).

I'm definitely of the advocates of something shouldn't be changed if it limits what one can do in the game (such as taking away a skill - that would just mean save-scumming the embark until you got what you wanted) and how one can use the sandbox-properties that is one of Dwarf Fortress' biggest attractions for me personally. As soon as the game puts arbitary "You must do this this way or the fort will fail" rules and game mechanics in place it is no longer a world simulator but a linear strategy game.

Just my 2 kittens. (in a cage)

[Schilcote]

I think underground farming should just be more labor intensive or prone to failure compared to aboveground crops. IRL, mushroom cultivation is quite labor intensive and its prone to crop failures from contaiminates from stuff like mold and bacteria that loves to grow on the same stuff mushrooms do.

SO instead of having to mine out hectacres of cave realestate to grow plump helmets, you have the same condensed area thats fruitful, only if you have alot of labor directed to it and you have skilled growers.

This would make it so that early forts rely more on trade and that more of your otherwise useless fortress population will be needed to grow food.

Mmm... I don't think forcing us to have to find certian squares that are more fertile than others to farm on is a good idea. Crop diseases, however, would be an excellent source of Fun. So you've got this 15X15 fertillized farm plot feeding your entire fortress at breakeven- then OOH SNAP your helmets all die. Massive crop disease spreading has caused widespread badness to happen in real life, (potatoes in Ireland) and it would be a good way to occasionally mix things up in a fortress that's sealed so invaders can't get in. You'd have to mix up some sort of primitive Dwarven fungicide (erm... Mushroom antibiotic) in the Alchemist's workshop and spray that on your farm plot.

[HAMMERMILL]

Pretty sure spraying fungicide on the soil you plan on growing mushrooms is a bad idea.

Mushrooms and stuff don't need any particular type of soil, you should beable to grow them on sand or wet rock as usual, since certain types of mushrooms can only grow in certain types of materials anyways. Cow poop, logs, straw, ect.

The point I'm saying is find a way to give an advantage to both types of crops. The benefits for underground crops are pretty obvious, so why not balance it with increased chances of crop failure or increased need for fertilizer, skilled labor while allowing every type of crop to be grown year round?

Outdoor farming would just require alot of land but no fertilizer and decent yeilds even if unskilled yokel newbie growers?

[Psieye]

As people have said before, it shouldn't be necessary to interact with the outside world to make a self-sufficient fort. However, interacting with the outside world should have some rewards - so we come to luxury goods, the "wants, not needs" as someone above already said.

Actually this arises because dwarves are the ultimate industrialists in the DF setting, in every industry too. They can do everything a community could need to get thriving and they can get the raw materials for all that by themselves too. Try imagining the far future where you can set up a human colony instead of a dwarven one - you can't make steel, your humans get unhappy fast if they're below the surface for lengthy periods of time (leading to mass suicide spirals! Because only dwarves can go berserk like a tantrum spiral) and their mining speed is really slow for rock. Then you'd be much more dependent on the outside world, especially the dwarves (pissing off the dwarves would be the HFS for humans as they'll send full-steel-plated killing machines led by possibly adamantine-equipped champions).

So back to dwarves, they're self-sufficient for all their needs but outside interaction even right now is encouraged due to luxury goods you can only import (exotic animals). This would be emphasised more if you couldn't grow any crop you want no matter what biome you're in. Maybe if (surface) crops planted in the wrong climate wither away before they even mature, then you'd be forced to keep trading if you want those luxury drinks. But we're only thinking of food here, this is a fantasy setting - other exotic raw materials can be the incentive to interact with the outside world. For example, only elves can weave this Magicloth that provides extra protection when woven as clothes, goblins bring unholy poisons on their weapons that you cannot make or apply yourself, maybe the humans would have some sort of blessed metals that are extremely expensive but somewhat better than steel. Better raw materials worth interacting for, but aren't essential as they're rare and exotic - dwarves can get their core materials by themselves so aren't required to interact.


Notice I've never said "trade", only "interact". There will be 2 ways to get what you want from the outside world: trade and pillage. Right now, you can pillage on the merchants as they come over, but in the future you can be polite to them and just raid their homeland instead. In fact, those 2 ways can each be subdivided too: loans and demanding tribute. I don't know how loans could work, but demanding tribute certainly seems reasonable: you invade other sites, get them to surrender and make them give you whatever you demand that they have. If they don't keep up, you can invade them again.

[Kogan Loloklam]

... Currently just a handfull of growers can supply an  entire fortress, so there's never that dilemma.

Then stop saying "dwarves". Those things apply to Human Town, Goblin Fortress, Elf Retreat, and Kobold Cave as much as it applies to Dwarf Fortress.

... (such as taking away a skill - that would just mean save-scumming the embark until you got what you wanted) ...

If it were tied to cultures, than save-scumming would do no good. Instead you'd have to ensure that the founding culture you pick has everything you want. I feel this would be excellent since it allows people to pick their own challenge level. Of course I think you should be able to see "cultural traits" without actually founding a fortress so would know before you embark that the dwarves you are about to use don't do lyemaking...

Being somewhat interesting in sustainability and independence, I can say that it is entirely possible for a fortress to be created independent in real life, so there is no reason to hobble dwarves or any other group to be anything less than that. (Fully independent, as in, Never-seen-again-but-still-alive kind of independent) What you people arguing is something that you don't even want right now if you knew what it was. If you doubt me, pick a dwarven industry. Now try to meet your needs in that industry in a fortress with 80 dwarves for 10 years via only imports.

I am certain that after the caravan arc is complete, there will be more importing because people don't want to develop the infrastructure. Likewise fortresses will drop industries as they get larger because they'd rather have the 5th metalworker than a butchery industry.

[Draco18s]

• Agriculture, especially underground agriculture should be harder, to make importing food more appealing.  Underground farms should require constant upkeep to maintain soil quality, animals should require food, and dwarves should appreciate varied diets

Where do you think dwarves dispose of all their waste? In a closed system, they're not going to have a lot of problems farming. Try putting a sandwich in the fridge for a few months and see what grows on it in that cold, barren cave . Now imagine what's going to grow in a hot, damp, muddy cave with frequent animal activity.

In a closed system, where is the energy coming in that allows energy to be spent powering life?

[Kogan Loloklam]

In a closed system, where is the energy coming in that allows energy to be spent powering life?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sea_communities

[Draco18s]

In a closed system, where is the energy coming in that allows energy to be spent powering life?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sea_communities

I dunno about your fortresses, but mine don't have marine snow, bottom plains, or whale falls.

[Schilcote]

• Agriculture, especially underground agriculture should be harder, to make importing food more appealing.  Underground farms should require constant upkeep to maintain soil quality, animals should require food, and dwarves should appreciate varied diets

Where do you think dwarves dispose of all their waste? In a closed system, they're not going to have a lot of problems farming. Try putting a sandwich in the fridge for a few months and see what grows on it in that cold, barren cave . Now imagine what's going to grow in a hot, damp, muddy cave with frequent animal activity.

In a closed system, where is the energy coming in that allows energy to be spent powering life?

Dirt.

[Draco18s]

In a closed system, where is the energy coming in that allows energy to be spent powering life?

Dirt.

And when the dirt has been exhausted?

[Schilcote]

In a closed system, where is the energy coming in that allows energy to be spent powering life?

Dirt.

And when the dirt has been exhausted?

You're screwed. Or you add fertilizer, in which case the energy comes from the trees you cut down to make lye.